Ep. 30 : Being Authentic, Resilient & Responsible - with Ami Ganatra

Bhogya Online (02:50)
Namaskaram, Ami ji. Very happy to have you on this podcast, the Impressive Empires podcast. And, Staying, Malati ji, very happy to be here. Thank you so much for taking your time out. And I'm really looking forward to sharing a lot of insightful and inspiring conversation with you. So, let's jump straight into it. I know you've had a very successful corporate career You've worked across

four different continents and you've worked with international clients as well. But somewhere along the line, there was a turning point in your career which kind of removed you from your corporate career and brought you into the Indian knowledge systems. So how did you embrace this art of storytelling? Talk to me about the

initial spark that you felt and more importantly the inner shifts that happened for you.

I was a consultant. I was a business consultant. And I think now it's then easy to understand the storytelling part because that is what consultants do. So as a profession, storytelling was something that was taught to me in my job. That is what we had to do. We had sessions on storytelling. Of course, it was very different. It was focused on businesses. It was focused on clients.

So the skill, think, I always say this, a lot of skills that are now manifest, if I may, into my work are coming from what I studied, are coming from what I learned, and are coming from the work that I did, although I didn't think of them as that at that point in time. So for example, I am an engineer. So I did my engineering, and then I did my MBA, and then consulting.

And all these three put a lot of emphasis on analytical thought process, on critical thinking, on what we call MISI, so mutually exclusive. So you're thinking the points that you make have to be mutually exclusive. How do you present those points? How do you ensure that whatever you say is consistent and impactful, right? So things just happened that way.

So the storytelling thing was already there and I loved my corporate career. enjoyed the 15 years of corporate career I had. mean, all jobs have their ups and downs, but overall the work that I did was something I really enjoyed doing. So I think the skill was there. Also, I don't think it was a shift. So when I moved from corporate to writing, it was one, not a deliberate shift. And second, it was also not as if

It was a change in the sense I was doing something now and I shifted to try to do something else because I was already studying. I was interested in our epics. I had been doing yoga for a while. I had already done my teachers training in yoga, not just for teaching. So to say, did take, I used to live in Hong Kong and I used to teach yoga to university students over the weekends and stuff. But the reason I actually did my yoga teachers training is to understand the whole process and the whole

philosophy of yoga better. So all that was already happening while I was working. Something going on in parallel, along with the usual corporate thing. So it was never as if I was doing something and suddenly a change happened. It's just that in 2020, I moved back to India and I wanted to move back to India for personal reasons. It was not as if I wanted to do it to write or anything. And then COVID struck.

And after COVID struck, decided to take a break for a while because I was working for a long time and a writing project came my way. So that's how it happened. Also, while I had not written books per se before, I had been blogging for a while. I had been blogging about my travel experiences. I had been blogging about yoga, about Sanskrit because I was learning all this in parallel. So in some way, I love to say this that

A lot of things which I picked up as a matter of interest, as a matter of trying to satisfy my own curiosity, just came together eventually when the writing project came my way. So I was not planning. All this was not planned. But something was going on somewhere up there. Someone up there was, you know, thinking through all this. And when the time came, everything that I had learned before, both professionally as well as academically, as well as as a hobby, it all just came together.

Hence, I never felt like I had to embrace something very different. It was more of a flow, leading from one to another, change of location, change of what I was doing. And I was still writing. I was still telling a story, right? Just the domain was different. So it has not been so difficult, let's say. In fact, it's been easier because now I'm not running against deadlines. Yeah, there are some writing deadlines, but.

really not as stressful as what a corporate career would bring in, right? I am, nobody is dependent on me. So I am on my own, as you mentioned, while we were discussing before, I'm also one person arm of me. So life is easier at a slower pace, and I'm enjoying that phase as well. So yeah, it's not been so difficult. Lovely. So

My next question was going to be about the challenges that you faced during this transition so-called from the corporate career to being a one-woman army. But looking at or hearing from you, I think you didn't face any challenges or am I wrong here? Well, would say not challenges. Again, it was not so much of a challenge, but there are things that you have to get used to. You have to get used to, right? Like you're not getting your monthly salary. You're not getting that check.

And you don't see an SMS coming that X amount has been credited in your account. So it's not easy. So of course, I have taken a huge hit on what I was making, right? In terms of my salary and all of that. So that is definitely there. I think that needed a little bit of getting used to. But again, it was more of a slow process because after I came back and I wrote the first book, I picked up a corporate job even after that.

So I did work for another year and then I realized that trying to balance both is a little difficult, not only because of the time, but also given the space I was working in at that point, it was in the social sector. I think there are a lot of ideological issues and the company wants to portray itself in a certain way. I have a certain ideology. So you reach a stage in life where you're like, okay, how much do you want to really compromise onto?

How much can you speak out and you not speak out, right? So I think there I had to take a call, whether I should stick to the values which now matter more to me or should I think about my next monthly paycheck? And I think, again, it was not a challenge, so to say, because having worked for so long, you already have some savings to call back on, at least for a while, right? So that security is there. So that helped. Hence it was not as if I had to give up a lot.

But yeah, that definitely needed a little bit of mental tuning to say that, okay, fine, that monthly check is not coming. But still my life is easier. I have a lot more time on my hand and I'm able to do things stress free and something that is, which I then saw was adding value. So for example, many times people ask me that, you're making so much impact. And I'm like, actually, when I started writing,

I was not thinking of it that way that, I'm going to change the narrative or I'm going to make an impact. No, I was just fascinated by the fact that what we thought we knew about our epics and what had created a narrative, which was quite damaging, so to say, to our morale, it was actually not that. So it was this naive enthusiasm that, it's actually not that. This is how it is. And let's talk about what

the reality so to say is. So that's how it was. I was not really thinking from creating even an impact at that point in time. But then when after the first book came out and the response it got and just the fact to see that the questions which I had, a lot of young women especially had similar questions and it had really helped people connect back to their roots. I think the impact

that became more visible. And then that made it easier for me to then say, okay, fine, I can leave the corporate career for now and continue doing what I'm doing. So yes, there was not a challenge, so to say, but yeah, it depends on how you see it. It was definitely this mental getting used to not getting the money that you were making, yes. That's a huge shift actually, right? But along the line, yes, you did take up a corporate job.

again after a year or something and you also work for a year like you mentioned but was there at any point of time did you have a self doubt you know women always have this am I doing the right thing? Should I go back to what I was doing you know that's more fixed like you said you know specific timelines specific deadlines and then you have a good paycheck you can enjoy life but social impact is something different it comes with its own

challenges, but most importantly, how did you find the courage to stay on course? Talk to me about courage and resilience. What are some of the practices that you do on a regular basis to keep it going? Malathi, the way I was thinking about it was a little different. And I think that is why, well, there's always self-doubt about the product that you create, right? That is always going to be there. And that apart, I think

The courage part was also easier for me in the sense that I had worked for 15 years and I was very confident. I am very confident of my profile. I know that even today if I send my CV, I may not make the same money I was making before. Maybe I take a hit on a level or two, but I will find a job. I will go back to corporate. I don't think that is ever going to be a problem. Maybe a few years down the line, that could be a problem, but immediately that was not so right.

So, and the header under calls were still coming. So I'm like, okay, fine. Let's take it as a break and see where this is. And I could take that call again, as I said, because I was confident of my profile. I have worked for so long. I have had a good career, not to boast of it, but it has been a good career. I have names of some very good universities on my resume. That does half the work. Now, is it a good or bad? I don't know. Like people say labels don't matter.

I think labels have their own role to play, especially when you are going to make such decisions, right? It is what it is. It is not good or bad, but it is what it is. It is the truth of the corporate career. So the way I was thinking about it is that if I can't take this call, who else can? Right? I'm probably in a much more secure situation to be able to take that risk. And after all these years, if I don't take that risk, then who else can? So from that perspective, I think,

It was easier just having the confidence and the comfort that yeah, I can go back in again. And I think that had come because of all the effort that had gone in over, you know, this time of times when I was a student, time when I was working, because I think the one thing which I sort of do well is whatever I take up, I try to give my best. I think that is one quality which thanks to my mother has always been there. I may not have clarity on what I'm going to do.

But whatever I am put into, I will try and do it well. And I think that has helped me through. And that also gave me the comfort of saying that, okay, I'm going to try this. If I don't try, who else can do it the way I can. The other thing I needed to add, and I'm just being very honest with you here, is that I'm not married. So people who are married, they have liabilities. They have a family to take care of, right? I think for whatever reason, and I'm not saying this

to tell people that you shouldn't get married. That's not the point. I think a grahastha life is important, but you know, there are some decisions in life which you really don't make. The choices just happen or rather you don't make those choices. Things happen to you in life. So for whatever reason, I am at a stage where I'm not even married. So even that dependency is not there. And that I think made it easier.

or rather that helped not create the self doubt that whether what I was doing was right or not. Because for me it was like, if I don't, who else can? So I shouldn't be so bad. I'm not going to have to take a huge hit on my lifestyle because my lifestyle anyways has been quite moderate. I'm not a party person. I don't spend a lot. That usual middle-class values, if you may, good or bad, right? But those middle-class values have really helped me in a good stead all this while. So yeah, so in that sense, I think it was just different.

rather than doubt or anything.

Great. So what was the kind of mission or motivation you had when you started this journey and how has it changed over the course of say now I think five years or four years into this new avatar? I three years. 2020 is when I started writing so four years. But then as I said my journey did not begin.

when I started writing. My journey began before that, when I was studying these texts. And I was studying these texts because I was just very curious to understand what is that moral anchor for Hindus. Because since I moved abroad, I saw that people are different and people are different. People from different countries are different. mean, is, mean, human beings will always be human beings from their desires, from what they want, what drives them. Yes.

But the approach to life, the philosophy of life is very different. How people react to changes, how people react to changes in circumstances is very different and it is very culturally rooted. So that is what really triggered me to understand that, I'm behaving in a certain way because I come from some kind of a cultural upbringing, but I'm probably not even aware of it. It has just, you know, come to me and I've accepted it. And it is something which is quite

fascinating when you move abroad and when you make all these comparisons with different people, right, with different kinds of nationalities. And you will see that an Indian always stands out, especially in the corporate. Why is it that so many Indians are doing so well globally? There has to be something to it, right? Why is it that we are so easy to adjust to changes? We don't freeze when things don't go our way. We find our way. it jugaad, call it whatever, but we'll always find our way.

We are not averse to working hard. So all that was there and we still hold on to our identity in some way. In spite of all this colonization or everything that you talk about, right? Wherever you are, I you live in Germany and there are a few, you held on to your roots, right? Come what may. The same with so many of us. So my thing was, what is it that, what does it mean to be a Hindu really? What is it that has made me the way I am?

And then when you talk to people, get all sorts of answers, which are very, very unconvincing, or at least they were very unconvincing to me. And that's another, if I have to say one characteristic quality has a judgment to it. So I wouldn't say that a characteristic is that I don't like to settle for inconvenient, just for convenient answers. long as it's not making sense to me, I will not accept it. I will not. And if it is, if that thing that matters so much to me, I'll put in the effort to actually find out.

So think I was at a stage where I mean, okay, I really need to figure this out. And I had time with me. My job was great. I was traveling a lot, but that all I also had time where I said, okay, let me start figuring out what does being a Hindu mean? What is this dharma that we talk about? What are these ethics that underpin being a Hindu? So I started reading. That's how the journey started. That's when I picked up Sanskrit as well to learn to read the text for myself.

So I think the journey started then and then the writing, I had no vision because that idea of writing was not mine. The idea of writing was suggested to me by a friend who had read some of my blog posts. I had written some blog posts on Mahabharat because we had study groups, we were doing all of that. That was the idea. So he read some of my blog posts and he said, you must write.

because what you seem to be talking about Mahabharat and Ramayana is very different from what people understand. And I said, that I'm very well aware of because nobody seems to read our texts. And he said, then why don't you think of writing what we have in our text? And I'm like, yeah, but it's already written now. What addition I have to make. am, I don't, I don't want to create any more fiction around it because the fiction has screwed us up. And he's like, no, no, no, you write what is in the text, but write it in a way that is accessible to everybody because right now it's not even translations are huge.

So it's not accessible to everybody. You write in that manner, which busts a lot of these myths that we have and that are being fed into all this narrative that is happening about Indians. And that idea appealed to me. And as I said, I had not joined a job. I had just come back to India. And I was like, okay, this sounds interesting. Let me give it a thought whether I can write. After a month, I told him I think I could give it a shot.

But again, I was not sure I'd be able to write a book. Writing a blog post is very different from writing a book. So I did not even tell anybody, but I had time on my hand. And as I said, when I take up something, I just keep doing it like that, you know, inertia ka ball, either you're sitting or sitting or you're going, you're given a push and you keep going, you keep going. So like that, I just wrote. And the book actually happened. And when the book happened, again, I was not really sure where I was going with all this. I had no plans of writing any more books or anything. But the feedback I got,

The emotional responses I got, the emails I got, the messages I got from people saying that finally they had found an answer to what they thought was not really, was misplaced, but didn't know what the answer was. And they were just taking in whatever was being fed. And they were like, no, now this makes sense. Now this is helping us connect, helping.

us to connect back to our roots. This is making so much more sense now and many people were like we are encouraged to read our texts for ourselves. This was after the first book and even more after the second book. So I think that made me realize that there is so much need for one there is so much thirst in the people to want to connect back to our roots and they're looking for options which tell them what is authentic.

which explain to them what is the truth, what is not the truth, which explains all these concepts to them in a lot more contemporary manner, which they are able to relate to, right? Because we've grown up in a certain way, the education has shaped us in a certain way. We have started thinking in that way. We are not going to just suddenly give up everything and go back 100 years because, know, there were issues then as well, like there are issues now. So how do you understand, how do you keep what is good? How do you ensure that

You accept back, which will help you grow, make you more confident, help you take better decisions, while still staying in this contemporary world. So I think that really has now made me realize that, there is so much more to do. And this is something which is giving me a lot of joy and actually bringing value to people around me. So I think that's how I started.

And after that, now along with the books, also offer courses on Mahabharata Ramana Gita, very small, eight to 10 session courses. These are not certificate courses or anything. This is just to get people introduced to what our itihaas has, what our literary heritage has and how useful it is in today's day and age. We don't have to change anything. It is just about today, how do we live our lives better without changing dresses, changing

having to go and live somewhere. No, no, no. Currently, how do you do it better? So I think now I see the value and now I feel like I have a mission to continue doing this. But I did not have it when I started. it's all this has been a journey.

So great. I could sit here listening to you all day long. I would like to touch upon this point of being authentic because this is a podcast that talks about the personal growth journey and I would like to probably take a deep dive into how authentic how are how you have remained authentic from the day you started writing. I you were exploring various scriptures, various Indian texts.

that have been passed down several generations and each of them have their own multitude of interpretations and each carry its own weight. Now with so many existing perspectives, how do you ensure that you stay as close to the original text and also to the voice that you want to share? Again, I would like to

like you to go a little inward and tell me what qualities, inner qualities or life experiences have strengthened your confidence to navigate this and remain authentic.

Madhiji, I think it is a little bit to do with the personality and a lot to do with the values that you grow up with, right? So a lot of it goes back to my mom. I think whatever I am is because of her. But having a very strong, how do I say, guilt consciousness really helps because being authentic, I am not being authentic for the world.

I am being authentic for myself because how else will I convince myself that whatever I'm doing is worthwhile? That I can go back to sleep peacefully if I am not true to what I'm saying versus what I believe in. So I think just wanting to have a peaceful life, if I'm very selfish about it, that I don't have to go back to sleep stressed about, arey baaple, am I making sense? Is this right? Is this wrong? No, I think that itself helps me to be authentic one.

The second is the reason I started doing all of this, right? I was doing very well in my career. I didn't need to do any of it. Not from trying to earn money perspective or try to win any accolades perspective. That was never the idea. The idea was, as I said, it has been a journey where now what the questions I had resonated with the people and help them find answers, which I was looking for. Right.

So if that is the case, if people are resonating with me who came in to do all of this, right? I think it is even more important for me to now be authentic and not really get attached to one thing or the other. And I tell you what I mean by that. Many times people would say things like, because it is written in our text, it has to be right.

or you have to keep justifying it because it is written in the text. I don't believe in that. I believe our texts have a lot of good to offer. It is important to know them for what they are. But that doesn't mean that every single thing written in the text has to be relevant today. That also doesn't mean that everything written in the text has to be justified or defended, because I'm not a defense lawyer for anything.

If it is not making sense, fine, don't use it. Right? If it is not relevant today, leave it. Why are all these texts given to us to ensure that we live our lives in a more worthwhile fashion? But if that is not going to happen, then what are we attached to? Right? I think that thought or rather working with the incentive to present things as it is more objectively.

has allowed me to be authentic and not so much to appeal to a certain audience. I'm not trying to appeal to a group saying that, you guys, I'm going to tell you everything about us is great. Hence, you believe in a certain ideology, hence I'm catering to you. No, that's not the idea. I'm not catering to anyone. I'm catering to my own self. And that is resonating with the people. And I think that has really helped me stay on course with that. And I hope it does. Sometimes what happens is that you get attached to that.

view itself right and you don't even see where you're making the mistake so I hope I remain objective even in my own assessment.

Have there been any difficulties or personal challenges because being authentic comes with its own difficulties. So can you share a particular moment in your life where being so authentic has not been so very favorable to you? I don't think there has been any serious issues, so to say, but I do know that

How do I say this? That you become unpopular with every side. Yeah, because there will be one side which will think that, my God, she's too liberal, or she is not giving the right kind of respect to our texts, or my God, she's still a feminist, right? That is one side. The other side will be like, see, she's trying to justify everything that is bad in the text, and things like that. So I think that always happens. I have

I realized that over time, if I have stayed what I am and explained myself better, think sometimes it's not even about people taking it wrong. I think sometimes it's about how you communicate. And that I have learned that it is important to also be sensitive to how you communicate. You might communicate exactly the same message. And some things are very trivial. And I say this a lot of times, like things like, you know, which in my head were very trivial.

Like, Hanumanji doesn't have a gada in Valmiki Ramayan. Now to me, it was a very trivial fun point. It didn't make any difference to the teachings we get from the Valmiki Ramayan. So because I was very naive when I started all of this, I just said it very offhandly in one of the podcasts laughing that, he asked me that what has been this one thing that you want to talk about, which has been different from what you were thinking. And I was like, you know what? In Valmiki Ramayan, Hanumanji doesn't have a gada. I laughed.

And I thought everybody's going to find it as amusing as I did. I didn't see it as trying to incite anybody or any belief. It is just what it is. Balbhigraman doesn't have it. Over time iconography, all that changes and things change. But people got offended and they got offended from the perspective of saying that, she's trying to challenge our belief system.

She's trying to delegate our gods. She's trying to be, you know, she's one of those from the leftist Kabbal who's creating a question mark on our gods. And I'm like, my God, because in my head, when I said it, I meant it in a very different way because Hanumanji, he still remains. In fact, when you read the Balmikira maan, he doesn't need the gada. He's stronger even without the gada. So it actually raises his stature. That's what it was in my mind that, my God, he's...

stronger than what we even believe him to be. That was the idea in my mind, but that's not what got accepted. Initially, I was very unnerved, definitely very unnerved about the whole thing, right? Because they were like, see, social media can be very abusive and you need to develop a thick skin, which you develop over time.

There were like armies of trolls out there giving gullies and this and that and what not. All kinds of abuses. So initially I was like, my God, what have I done? I've only said the truth. Now if people can't listen to it, not my problem. And then your mind goes into thinking, okay, should I say it? Should I not say it? I think the problem is not about the data point. That is what it is. Valmiki Raman doesn't have it, right? That's how it is.

There are many different temples of that century which don't even show the gada. So clearly it is a later day addition into the iconography. But then today we see it that way. Today we worship Hanumanji in a certain way. was I saying you have to discard that? Not at all. It is in fact an interesting study to say how some of these iconographies evolve, right? But anyway, so then what I learned from that episode is that it is not about the data point but about how it is communicated. So now that I've asked about it.

I would add this that yes, Valmiki Ramayan doesn't have the gada, but that does not devalue Hanumanji in any way. It actually increases his profile. And today we don't need to discard the imagery because upasana, the upasana padhati, the way we worship, the rituals, the imagery does not always have to fit like what it has has. And we have lived with that duality, that dichotomy in the Sanatana Dharma.

That is the beauty of our Dharma rather than a negative of it, right? And it has to be understood that way. So I think my communication has improved significantly because I think having compassion in this field is very, very important, right? You don't want people to take away what you don't mean. And you don't want to see just given the way history has been taught in India, right?

We have been made to feel we are a lesser people. And then if somebody who is sort of coming from our side is also doing the same, it does hurt. So I understand that now. I also think that we should not be so thin skinned that we can't accept what Uttiha has, right? I think that is also not right. We have to accept our texts for what they are. But that is not going to be a change in a bit.

So it will have to be a process which takes time with compassion, with more education, with more exposure to our people. And I think that change is happening significantly in the last few years, as I've seen both on the narrative front of Mahabharata and Nath Ramayana. I think the change is happening

Lovely there. a wonderful point there. Communicate with compassion. I think with the social media world that we are living in, it's even more important that we take everybody along and still communicate in a very authentic way. Great. So you did mention that you have been also not just writing, but also you take a lot of workshops.

You also travel around the world giving speeches. I mean, not just the podcasts, the courses, the workshops and all of this that you conduct. This is going to be impacting the future generations in the way

they see the epics in the way they consider values or morality, in the way they consider building positive character traits. Do you feel a sense of personal responsibility there in your storytelling? And how has this thought process enriched your own growth and approach to your work? Definitely, I think it is very important because again, Maldhiji, when you go back to the text, you're talking about ancient texts here.

There are lot of things that I mentioned which don't make sense today. Right. They could have meant something in those days and age. Also, because my core area of interest is it has I also see that a lot of theory or you lot of what is given as do's and don'ts and stuff was not even lived during that time. But yes, you see that as a guideline. It is.

So just discarding that, our texts don't talk about this at all. we never had this problem. I think that is also not the right way because it is there a lot. If somebody goes back to the text and sees it that, she said that there is nothing like this where the text talks about some of these issues, which are considered bad today. But they do talk about it. So can I just lie that they don't exist? No, that is one. Second.

Do I have to go full Monty and start criticizing that because those things are bad everything about the past is bad? Not really. It has to be understood in its nuance. It has to be understood in a specific context and with the acceptance that it was probably there or not there in the past but today it definitely doesn't matter. So yeah, take the best.

Leave the rest. There is a lot more to offer. You don't need to throw the baby out of the bath. Baby along with the bath water, right? So I think making a point with this in mind also becomes very important because I get asked all these questions, right? And I cannot say it was not there. I think that's what I meant by taking easy answers or convenient answers. It's very easy to say, this never existed. caste is a British term. phalaana dhikana. Well, you see that,

Text and text and text are talking about the differences. Some of it also talking about it being based through being birth based, right? Why do you also have other texts which give you a different picture? So it is important to bring all of this together. It is important to acknowledge that yes, the orthodox views existed then, orthodox views existed now, but liberal views also existed then as they exist today, right? And you will always have people who have

lived in the spectrum. mean, you always have people living in the spectrum going from Orthodox to liberal. Like as it is now, so it was done. Again, the beauty of Dharma is that one side never said the other couldn't exist. We never tried to jump on the other group and kill them. We said, okay, fine, you live with your view. I will live with my view. Let the best view survive in the long term. Right? That is the beauty of the Dharma that has allowed us to say, say, so we don't need to

discard one or the other. We don't need to get defensive about one or the other. We need to be very objective about it and talk about it. So I think because this ancient texts have so much in them which can get miscommunicated, I think that sense of responsibility comes and has to come. And I think one thing which I see missing in a lot of people talking about ancient texts

either from a fiction perspective or from an ideologue perspective, they tend to fall into one or the other bucket. See everything wrong or see everything as right or see whatever they want to. And I think that doesn't help. I think that is where the narrative goes one way or the other. think hence it's important to remain objective. And that is definitely something that I want to continue.

Somebody once said that one person can change the world by giving words of hope. Here you're giving words of not just hope, but drawing inspiration from the ancient texts and that too giving it in a very authentic manner that's going to impact the society in a very positive way. Reading through all of these scriptures, so many texts, do you have any favorite characters?

What have been some of the lessons that you have learned from those characters?

To be very honest, Mahabharat and Ramayan are full of characters and I like a lot of them. Women characters, think the one thing which a lot of commentators and even fiction writers have just done injustice to are the women characters. They are so strong in Mahabharat and Ramayan, both, right? They have to be seen in their own way or rather they have to be seen for what they are, not impose our views on them and make them sound like some

helpless dancers in distress, which they were not. So think that is one and hence I like all the female characters. Starting from Kaikai to Kaushalya to Sita ji to Draupadi Kunti Gandhari. They're all absolutely fascinating. Of course, the characters of Shriram, of Lakshman, of Arjun, of Krishna. I think I like all of them, so I don't have a favorite. But there is one story from the Bhagavad Amma which I really like and that is the story of the Avadhuta.

So it says that Yadu, from whom the Yadav dynasty started, he was roaming around one day and he sees this poor but very happy looking boy who's sitting in a jungle, who's gone there to graze his cows. And the king looks at him and he has nothing. He's wearing some torn clothes stuff, but he's very happy. He's enjoying that moment he's in there. And the king asks him, says that, you don't seem to have anything. Why are you so happy?

Who is your teacher who taught you to be happy this way? Please tell me, I'll go to your teacher and learn from him. And he says, I have 24 or 25 gurus, he says. And he lists out everything that he learns from. And these are all aspects around you. So I think having that, what I love about that story, I think that is a story later on, Avadhut is also given the name as Dattatreya. So Dattatreya is teachers, right?

I think I find it absolutely fascinating because there is so much to learn from everything and everyone around you. They're all your teachers, the scriptures, the storytellers, the people around you, your parents, the things you see around you. I think I just love that story because that one story tells us that remain humble and learn from everything that you can.

One of my favorite stories. I think this is one the favorite stories I have.

Very, very lovely. Yes, we can learn from the bee how to be and from the mosquito how not to be. So there's lessons to learn from every character that we come across. I mean, I know you do reflect a lot about these stories, these itihazas and puranas. But have there been any moments during your reflection that led you to discover

something unexpected about yourself.

about myself. Yes.

I don't think it is unexpected, but I do know that when I believe into something, I will stick to it. And that has become even stronger with this view. I'm willing to fight it out. It's a view which I genuinely believe will serve the cause and it is right. So I think the feistiness, it was there, but sometimes it's sort of lost and I feel like it's sort of coming back. But

I think that is one, but apart from that, yeah, I don't know. not really thought about it so much about Trump personal run. It's been more of, my God, I didn't know this. my God. This, okay. Maybe one thing which, which now strikes me. So when the first book came out, okay, let me go back to the first answer I gave you. You asked me about storytelling and I said, I learned all this through my past.

I think that itself was a self discovery that how things have come together. I had never thought about it before because I remember when my first book came out and somebody commented and somebody said, only a consultant could have written this way. And I'm like, my God, this is one of those tube light things, right? I never thought of it that way. I was not thinking that, I have, I have developed all these skills.

And now I'm going to put them to use. That's not how I was thinking. But when that comment was made, I'm like, yes, exactly. I have bullet points. Who puts bullet points in a book? And I didn't think of it before. I just wrote it as I would write it, right? So I think that more than discovery about myself, it was more about discovery of life that a lot of things happen in your life, or a lot of things are happening in your life, which you don't think about or you don't...

If they don't make sense at that point in time, but nothing goes waste as long as it has something to do with learning. Nothing goes waste. It all comes back. And even if we don't have a plan, there is always a plan. It's important to just let life happen. think that was something that I lived my life in that manner. But that realization has happened more about my attitude and approach to life because it was, I didn't have to face it directly at that point in time.

Now I do. So I think that kind of experiences have definitely happened. Yes. Yes. mean, our life is a mixture of all the experiences that we carry forward from our past. If you were to probably talk about or pick five important lessons in the journey of self-improvement for a leader, let's say a woman leader, what would these five lessons be?

I think first is being aware, absolutely, honestly being aware of what we are, what we like, what we don't like, what is it that we are willing to compromise on, what are our non-negotiables. I think we all know that and being very honest about it. Like sometimes we don't want to accept our... If I may interrupt, can you relate these lessons to the characters from the epics? my God. Just the name also would do.

Let me see if I can do it well. But as I said, the first quality is just being aware of what we are, including awareness of our pros and cons. More often, we try to justify our cons in certain ways. Yeah. We'll be like, but I am like that only, but you know, this has served me well in a certain way. Yes. All that is fine. But being very aware also of the objectives about why we are doing, what are the motivations of doing.

certain things. Because if we are not honest to ourselves about why and how and our own selves, the outcome will never be how we expect it to be or the decision will not be what we want it to be. I'm not saying that we'll always make the right decision or the wrong decision. No, that's not the point. But at least whatever is done, we'll take ownership of it as long as we are self aware. In Mahabharat, think Yudhishthir is one such person and Sriram is another person.

very clear, very clear why they are doing what they are doing, including the mistakes that they have or what we would call the mistakes that they have made or people around them are doing. They have still done what they have done, but they're not trying to justify it in any way. They know why they have done what they have done. So I think that kind of self-awareness is extremely important. The second thing is not taking yourself too seriously. I think sometimes we

We have a plan, we want to work in a certain way, especially a lot of us today, been achievers, we always want to achieve, there's always something, you know, this goal, that goal. Yes, having goals in life is very, very important. But it is very important to know that even the successes which come in our life, yes, we have a certain role to play. Of course, we've done some work about it, but it is not because of us. lot of people would have put in the same effort, things worked in our favor because of many other things.

So it is not always because of us. Also things you realize that which didn't go in your favor or what you thought the things didn't happen the way you wanted them to happen have also turned out for the good which you realize over time, right? Again, nothing that you did, things happen. So it is very, very important that we don't take ourselves too seriously and we let life happen and have faith.

that if we've come here, if we've come this far, there's something taking care of us and it'll take us further. So not taking yourself seriously along with having the faith in whatever you call it, call it life, call it destiny, call it Bhagwan, whatever it is, right? But there's something beyond you. You are just that instrument. I think so that is important. Sometimes we take ourselves so seriously, then what happens? Ahankar comes.

You this to me, you did

If you need to get somewhere, you have to work hard. Even if you don't achieve what you wanted to achieve, you still have to put in the hard work for the results to come your way. I think that is there is no easy way to whatever to success to getting what you want. And we see that in every character in the Mahabharata as well. People like Arjun, they have worked hard. They have worked hard and they put in their best foot in everything that they have done. Like Krishna says, yoga or kadmasu kaushala.

So it's extremely important that you have that willingness to work hard. Fourth is discipline, which you will see in all positive characters. Like whatever you take up, ensure that you do it. If you've committed to it, do it. Don't make, sometimes we start very enthusiastically and then by the time it happens, they're like, okay, okay. Again, doesn't help.

You will need to push yourself. You will need to put in that hard work. You will need to push yourself when everybody else is having fun. That's what you think. But that is the only way. I think these four, I would say. And the last again goes back to the second part. The second thing which I made that don't said about don't take yourself seriously. I would always say that put in your hard work, be disciplined, have a goal. But eventually acceptance is also important. Accept what comes your way because

There is so much that you don't know. You might think you want to do a certain thing, but who knows, there's something else is waiting for you. And you will see that in the life of all great people. What they had in mind life took a drastic turn and took them somewhere else. But if they had not accepted that they wouldn't have reached where they are. So having that acceptance and letting life happen. I think that is also very important. It goes with the second part, but

Yeah, and I think for my life, it hasn't been true. mean, it hasn't. There has not been a better way to express it, as I was telling you in the beginning as well that a lot of things I have not planned things happen. And that acceptance really helped let things or other accept things and still put in the hard work. Because of course, I enjoyed that also. And also because I anyways don't plan. It's a bit of a personality thing, which is most well.

Yeah, just like Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, right? So do your duties to the best possible means and ways and leave the results. Absolutely. Basically, think Bhagavad Gita is one of the most profound books ever written. We call it the essence of all the Upanishads. But I think it has everything that one needs to look for. It has everything that one needs to lead a very

fulfilling life. Successful, I won't say successful, very fulfilling life. Where you know, we talk about being happy. How do you be happy? Right? Not everything is going to go your way. So I always say that if there's one book which everybody must read is the Bhagavad Gita. Read and understand. Krishna has all the answers. And that's what I say that do your best, leave the rest. Very true. I mean, this is a

podcast about women leaders and I definitely have to ask you about women and empowerment in the the epics in our ancient Indian texts. You did touch upon it briefly, but we have seen a lot of powerful characters, female characters in Ramayana or the Mahabharata. For example, Masita learns from Anasuya. Then even Draupati is a very powerful character. Now each character

embody different values and virtues. How do you think the stories of these women can impart lessons of empowerment to the modern woman?

I always go back to the very basic, what does empowerment mean? Is empowerment about, you know, as they keep talking about break the glass ceiling, go to offices and work? Yes, is that empowerment? Yes, definitely. You're doing something, you're bringing in value, you're adding to the society, you're adding to your family, all that you're doing, of course, that is empowerment. That is an aspect of empowerment. But

Is a woman who has decided to stay at home and take care of a family, is she not empowered?

I think that is where the question of empowerment is, right? Is empowerment about a role or is empowerment a state of mind? To me, empowerment is having the agency to make your decision and to make yourself heard. It does not mean that there will be no challenges. Of course, there will be challenges, right? In whose life is there no challenge? You look at every male character in their pick-up and everybody's life, there is Sankhash.

Who is that character in the entire epic or for that matter in this world who only has his way? Who has to make no compromises man or woman whoever right? both have to do that. It is not just a gender thing. So what is empowerment? Empowerment is to say that okay can I make my decision in this particular situation and I have seen that every woman character in the epic has done that.

What they do is a different matter altogether. If they choose to be with their husband, that does not mean they are not empowered. If they choose to follow their husband, that is also a decision that they have made, which they didn't have to, but they did. And how does society accept that attitude or rather accept that agency of the woman?

Again, in the epics, I have seen that the society is way more accepting of the decision that a woman has done and it is not even blaming them for the decisions they have made like it is not doing to the males. So that in the epics, I think the empowerment is really showed in its two sense because they are not thinking about it as empowerment. They are thinking about everybody doing their roles the way they should.

Empowerment gets juxtaposed with specific roles. I think that is where the problem starts happening. Because roles change with time. Society evolves, technology changes, norms change. What is required for a family to be a happy family and live its life well also changes. Accordingly, the gender roles will also change. Hence,

In all these situations, what is it that stays constant? That is that agency which the man and woman both have. Now, I'm not going to say that we've never had in India or in the globe a problem where women did not have agency. I think we've had that situation, right? Today also in lots of parts of Bharat, we've had that situation. We do see situations where women are not empowered, where they don't have the agency.

they're not even asked about big decisions that are being made for them by the people in their family. And this is not just in India. We've seen even globally that voting rights for women in Europe, which is considered what some sort of a heaven for women, of women empowerment, till the 70s and the 80s, they did not have voting rights. Germany women had to fight for their voting rights. Switzerland women had to fight for the voting rights. So I think it has been a struggle

across the globe. But in India, that has never been the case. The question about who should women get the right to vote or not. Since we became independent, since we've had electoral form of democracy, we've always had everybody have the voting right, right? So I think that is also a process like how people, I mean, the process of being empowered. But in the epics, these are the women who have agency. These are the women who've taken their cause.

And these are the women who do not believe that being independent strong women means breaking the society or means breaking the family. we think of empowerment as being a rebel, right? You rebel against everything and it makes you a empowered person. No, no, it makes you a stupid person. Every system has its own space in the society. Family has its role. Your community has its role. Your nation has its role, right?

And you are what you are because of all these systems. Yes, it is possible that something is not working in that system. Yes, please make an effort to change it, but don't try to break it and think of yourself as some sort of a fighter because you're a fighter without a cause and you're not helping anybody. So I think that understanding of empowerment is important, which the women in the epics do teach us.

I have to really thank you from the bottom of my heart for defining women empowerment so clearly. I think there's a lot of confusion among many, many women about what it really means. And it also kind of flows into my next question where we define success.

You are coming from the corporate world and their success comes with clear metrics and milestones. But on a personal journey like this, the markers can be less visible. How do you define success for yourself? And if you could share some of the values that you attach to it.

I think for me, the definition of success has also changed coming from corporate. Of course, I wanted to achieve certain role in certain period in certain, you know, achieve certain pay grade, all that. think that has, that is there. Even now, I don't think it's completely gone because clearly you want your books to do well, especially, know, initially you don't care because you've not thought about it. But now when you're in the marketplace, clearly all that matters. Right. So, yes, those do define success in the material world.

But is that success in the material world good enough to make you happy? Is the question we need to ask ourselves, right? Does that make you happy? Yes. But is that enough to make you happy? Probably not. Now, then it comes to the question that you are successful, but not happy. Then is that really success? Then what is success? A lady who is not living her life according to those parameters.

whatever person, yeah, not living her life according to those parameters, is he or she not successful? But they're happy. Then clearly there is something going on there, right? Like success by itself does not mean happiness and happiness by itself does not mean success in the material world. But then how do you decide a life when lived? I think we all define it for ourselves. For me, I think now

The question that, okay, I'm doing whatever I'm doing. Yes, the success in the material world definitely matters. I am not a sanyasi or I have not given up any kind of attachment. I think I talk about a lot of these things, but doesn't mean I'm living them. A lot of it is still more intellectual and I've been very honest about that too, right? So yes, all that matters. But at the end of the day, I want to have a peaceful sleep at night. I don't want to be stressed about this and that. I don't want to be

And you know, the biggest stress comes from not living a life according to the value that matters to you. I think that is something I've realized over time. That if you're in a constant struggle with what you believe is the value that you personify or that you want to live up to, right? In the material world. But you're not actually living that. And there is a dichotomy or there is a hypocrisy which you yourself know. I think that is the biggest issue in making you happy.

more than anything else. And I hope to be able to be successful in that measure, to always remain authentic, to always live a life for the values that I talk about, to live a life. And I'm not saying that has happened right now. I'm not even claiming that people have to live by those values. All I say is, these are the values that are important to be happy. Yeah. So now I think for me,

Success really is being able to accept life the way it counts and still continuing to do what you do.

Beautiful. So as with all podcasts, this also has to come to an end. But I would like to end this with a rapid fire round. Are you ready? Cool.

What are the three things that worries you about leadership today?

One, just we just talked or spoke about how do you define success? Second is authenticity. And third is trying to be something that I mean, I think it goes with the authenticity part. The third is being very, very material focused. I think the three sort of go together. yeah, these are what I can come up with in a rapid fire. What's the best way that you recharge your creativity?

Right now, I think I just have a lot of time. So I'm not very harsh on myself. If I am doing something and if my brain doesn't work, I'll just get out, go get a nap, maybe drink coffee. So I think that just helps. But again, this is because I am in a situation where I can afford to not have deadlines and work on my time and space. But that really helps you. Or sometimes even just scrolling through Instagram, I think sometimes done in

limited amount it can really reach out. Okay, what's the one thing that you cannot live without?

Lots of things. think lots of things I can't live without. I want to have a good comfortable life in whatever is my definition of comfort. I want to be eating few things which I really like. So lots of things I can't live without definitely. My mother, I think I need her all the time. She's the one taking care of me. What's the one dream that you're chasing?

I am not chasing any dream right now. I just want to ensure that right now whatever I have taken up, as long as it is serving some cause and some interest, I do it well. And then we'll see what comes next. Okay, the last one. What's the most adventurous thing that you have ever done? my God, again, lots. I've done loads of solo trips. So not any adventure sports, but I've done a lot of solo trips and I've had

lots of interesting small adventures along the way and I cherish all of them. Okay great. Any particular thing that you want to share?

I'm thinking which one because I've done everything from sleeping on an empty platform in Milan after having missed a flight, sleeping on the ground in a bus stop in Thailand, getting into a taxi where the taxi driver in Cuba where the taxi driver was hell bent on marrying me suddenly and out of nowhere. Somewhere in the Himalayas where I meet this person who shows himself to be a sadhu but

wakes me up at two in the night because he wants to talk to me and I'm super scared didn't know where to go because you know I just hitchhiking my way through the hills having not planned any stay or bus or anything so there are lots of those actually. Wow we need to have another podcast to discuss this. Yeah but it's been all good it's been fun. Lovely.

So great talking to you, Amitji. The last one hour has just gone away so quickly. I'm once again so thankful and grateful for the time that you have taken and be here with us and talk about your life's learnings in this one hour. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Malathiji. Thank you.