Ageism Is a Feminist Issue with Helen Hirsch Spence

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Thrive After 45. I'm Denise Drinkwalter, midlife mentor and mirror, and every week I am honored to share energy and space with inspiring guests whose stories reflect so many possibilities of thriving beyond 45. Together we'll uncover the whispers of the heart, the power of midlife transformation, and the wisdom that fuels expansion because when one woman turns her light on, the rest of the room catches fire Who decided that a woman's value should shrink with every birthday? My guest today has been asking questions like this for 10 years, and what she found is this: the word ageism didn't even exist until 1968. Someone had to invent it because someone had built the thing that it describes, a cultural message crafted to serve a booming post-war economy and repeated so many times that we mistook it for the truth about ourselves, which means any shame so many of us carry about our age, it was never ours to begin with. Before Helen took this on, she spent decades in senior leadership roles across Canada and private education systems, and then she looked at one of the most overlooked forms of discrimination that there is, and she decided to name it. She founded Top 60 Over 60 to challenge the old stories about aging and to champion longevity literacy across Canada. Through speaking, consulting, and community, she invites all of us to embrace the 100-year life with curiosity, purpose, and respect for every generation. Her book, Reset, written with Debra Yearwood, is for the woman standing in the middle, excuse me, of a life transition, ready to reclaim her agency. Her TEDx talk has reached over 100,000 people, and I'm sure that is climbing, and thousands more have heard her speak or found her online. Lately, she has landed on something that I think every woman listening needs to really hear. Ageism is a feminist issue. Drug trials, medical treatments were only recently tested on women, and only very, very recently on older women. When the system treats us as differently as we age, the cost is real. Poverty after divorce, widowhood or abuse, benefits we never had. She stands in the line of Famous Fives, the women whose persons case victory changed who counted as a person under the law, and she is carrying that work forward for visibility, dignity, and full participation for older adults. She's been awarded the Queen's Platinum Jubilee Community Service Award in 2022, and a finalist for Businesswoman of the Year in the Community Impact category. I cannot wait to have this conversation, and it is absolutely my honor and privilege to welcome Helen Hirsch Spence to our show today. So wonderful to have you here. Thanks so much for that beautiful introduction. My goodness. Wow. Thank you. And thanks for having me. Oh, it's a privilege. Really, it, it really, really is a privilege. And, here's a funny thing we're gonna start with. Okay. I'm gonna show, for those people who are actually on YouTube, this is a mug that I received. "If things get better with age, I'm approaching magnificent." It's what's on the mug, right? I love it. Here's the interesting part. I received this mug as a gift when I turned 30. No. Yes. Yes. And at the time, I was, I was like, "Wow," And I will tell you, there's a reason why I've kept this mug, because I believe very differently about when I received it and how I read it now. Right? Absolutely, yeah. Big- I totally, totally get it. You understand, Helen. When I got that mug, I was, like, depressed. I was like, "Oh, I'm turning 30. I'm getting old," and all of the crap- Mm-hmm that I started to believe about myself came flying through the filter. That's right. And I didn't, I didn't wanna use the mug. I didn't wanna use it, 'cause I'm like, "I don't wanna get old. I, I, I'm not old." No. "I'm not old. I'm fighting, fighting, fighting aging." That's a real paradox, paradox of aging- Right? isn't it? Yeah. it's a, an accomplishment to be able to live this long, and yet here we are saying, "We don't wanna live. We don't wanna be old." Right. And yet what's the alternative? Death. it's so ridiculous. It makes absolutely no sense. But I love the mug, and if ever you see another one, let me know, because I'd love to get one like that. And gift it to everybody I ever speak to, because it's really, really a truism, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It is. Mm-hmm. And isn't it interesting how we flip the script on it when we really dig into what the heck is ageism anyway? So let's dig in. What is ageism? Help us understand. The breadth and width of it, because it's big. It is big. It's so big, and yet it's so misunderstood. But you framed it beautifully in that you, you help, people understand, as you described it, that it is our culture that ha- we have inherited, and that it's a cultural myth that aging is something to fear because of decline or because of fragility or because of, less cogn- cognitive ability. Mm. And that isn't really true, and the research has shown that. However, we have lived... I like to think of it really as a paradigm. Mm-hmm. the paradigm has been around since the 1950s when we had a booming population, and in essence, productivity, marketing, advertising, everything was focused on young people, on parents who had young people. Mm-hmm. And that's where they made their money, and that didn't sh- change. The other reality is we didn't have very many old people at that particular point in time. Mm. We only had three generations alive if we were lucky. Right. Today we've got up to six generations alive at the same time, sometimes even seven. Mm. And five are working in the workplace together. Mm. We have a completely new, narrative, and yet the times have not shifted with that rea- new reality. Yeah. That, we're not living in... It's like wearing goggles that see everything over a certain age is negative. Mm. Mm-hmm. It's especially true for women. It's called gendered ageism. Okay. However, it, it applies to men as well. And as you said- Of course there are very different types of ageism. I'll gladly go into them. But the definition is simply, a, a bias, prejudice, or discrimination based on age. Okay. It could be young. Yeah. It could be younger people or older people. Mm. Mm-hmm. The truth of the matter is it's more prevalent, according to the World Health Organization, which put out a global report on ageism in 2021 in which it stated that one out of two individuals was prejudiced against older adults. Mm. There are parts of the world where there's a greater prejudice against younger people. That's in Europe. But it's not as prevalent as the one out of two who are biased against older adults, and we've inherited that. Right. It's not something that we should be ashamed of. It's, it's the systems. Mm. It's the institutions. It's the language we've spoken. How often have you, Think about the birthday cards. These are This is called- Yeah like every- everyday ageism. Everyday ageism is what we see in our midst- It's- without really even noticing. But if you go to- Mm a card shop and try to- Yep find a birthday card that isn't making fun of growing older, you'll probably- Yeah find something sweet and sappy, but there's- Mm-hmm not much in between that- Right and a joke. And they are- Right funny. I give it to these card makers- who come up with the fire extinguishers because there's so many candles on the- Yeah but the reality is that every single one of those ageist innuendos has an impact on the individual's wellbeing, and it is a proven fact- Mm that ageism is detrimental to your health. Of course. It is so, it is so damaging that it is It, it affects, cognition for sure. Yes. Physical wellbeing. We don't heal as quickly as we might. So anything that's, that's associated with a negative view of aging has a cost individually, but then that's a societal cost and an economic cost. Right. The part of everyday ageism, for instance, would be things like, the thinking or the, the sayings that go, "Oh, Denise, you can't wear those glasses. Those are-" inappropriate for your age," Or, "That hairdo isn't-" Mm-hmm "isn't suitable for someone your age," or, "I'm too old to start something new." Right. Or, "I can't-" Oh, yeah "travel to Asia." Mm. look at me. I'm 62 years old. things like that- Mm-hmm become normalized, and they have- Yeah become normalized, and yet now we are living 20 years longer. Another aspect of everyday age- 20 to 30 years longer, I should say, Another aspect is what, what's called elder speak. We find that very often in senior residences when- Mm caregivers unintentionally diminish the person's value by speaking to them in a higher voice or di- are we hungry? Is our tummy talking? as if we It infantilizes people, right? Yes. Or doctors who speak to the advocate- Yes who accompanies an older person. Mm-hmm. All of tho- That's elder speak. Right. Or, or if we meet somebody on the street and we speak really loudly making the assumption that they're deaf. Yes. Right. Or they're stupid because they can't work their phone, All of those things are ageist. Yeah. So that's sort of every day or elder, elder, elder speak. Yes, yes. Then we have instit- institutional ageism. Mm-hmm. Where there are, some reasons like drinking and driving n- may be reasonable, but that we had retirement ages or that we still think in terms of retirement age being 65. Right, right. That, that was established, in Canada in the 1960s, in The States in the 1930s when the average lifespan was 62. Right, right. And, retirement and pensions and those kinds of benefits- Mm-hmm were for if we're living that long. Well, we're living- Right 20 to 30 years longer now. Right. Nothing's changed. Yeah. In fact, we're, we're discriminated against if we wanna continue working because some of the And I'm not a financial expert. Mm. But some of the benefits or some of the tax, implications- Right are not, not positive- Right for an older person. Right. And then you look at, at, the, the, the most insidious type of ageism, which is internalized or self-directed. Yes. And those are the types of, of conversations we have within our own heads about- Mm. Mm-hmm that little voice that says, "I'm not as good as I used to be," or- Yeah "I can't do things anymore," or, "I'm afraid because..." Yeah. And it always has to do with your age. So- Yeah those, that's internalized ageism, and that's the most prolific probably 'cause we don't recognize it. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Makes sense. I didn't. I didn't. That's the reason I- Yeah I launched this whole new- Yes enterprise in, at this point in my life because I figured- Mm-hmm with the experience I had, and you and I share a senior- Right educational background, right? I was shocked that- Yeah I could feel as diminished as- invisible, as irrelevant- Mm as I did. Mm-hmm. And I really did- Yeah in my mid-60s. T- can you give us a bit more about how that, like, what was your awareness of feeling invisibility? Where did it stem from? And we know the direction you're moving. Thank you. Thank you for the direction you're moving now, and your steadfast, focused- absolutely incredible, support for diminishing, shrinking this whole concept and moving the needle for all of us. So let's start with where this became your reality, your invisibility. Because I know there are women who are listening, and men- Yeah, men too that are lis- Yeah. Yeah, of course, that are listening going, "Well, I'm feeling invisible. Don't I... Isn't this just what we have to do now, is kinda hide? I don't like it, and I'm fighting it internally." What do we do with it once we realize it? It's great. Yeah. It's great once people start fighting it internally, but I think most, most of us don't recognize it as- Yes as for what it is. It happens, very gradually, and- Mm s- everybody knows that their identity is tied up with whatever role they, they once had, right? Right. Much, much so in our culture in any case. Yes. And so that's, if you had a position of authority in any way or form, your advice would be sought in different situations- Mm-hmm at parties or in bars- Right socially or whatever. Sure. Well, suddenly you realize that there aren't quite as many people who are seeking you out for whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's one thing. Mm-hmm. Um, you find that when you go into stores, especially as a woman, this is not true as much- Yes for men, but- Yeah you go into a store and you're checking out, and there's some young person at the cash register, and they reference, they refer to you as young lady or- Mm dear or h- those diminutives that are meant well. They're not meant to be- Sure as negative as they actually are, Mm-hmm or the way in which they're internalized. Uh, those were the kinds of things- that I was noticing. Uh, I wasn't, maybe invited to places where I formerly would've been invited or welcomed in the same way. They're very subtle some, some- I would say, yeah some of these, n- noticeable changes, but they sure did have an impact on me. Yeah. And then, and then it's j- just one or two little things and you think, oh, oh, well, maybe I'm not as good as I used to be or- Mm I can't, I can't expect that at my age that I would be, s- considered a, a, s- a- Right a, oh, what's the word I'm looking for? an advisor or- Right For s- for some situation. Yeah. Yeah. Although that's what I did my whole life. But anyway. Right? Yeah. Yeah. the, the amount of experience that's discounted with older people is shocking. Yeah. Yeah. And it's j- it's really our culture. if you look at other cultures in the East, they take care of their elders. they make a point of bringing them along with them. Yeah, yeah. they respect what they have to say. Indigenous cultures, I mean- Right they, the word elders, I think is something that we need to bring back, and I think we need- Okay to call this new stage in life perhaps elderhood. Yes. And that's not original. That belongs to, I think it's Tracy Gendron, but I'm not sure. It could be somebody else. Mm-hmm. But the point is we, we don't have vocabulary to describe our new reality, our new larger- Right and so we fall back- Yeah into that old paradigm of- Yeah oh, she's old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So- And that's dismissive. It is very dismissive, and it perpetuates the problem. Yeah. It just makes that snowball go down the hill, and it's massive, and we're all getting caught up in it. How, how do we begin with all of your work, how do we take what you're doing, and I know many other people, particularly in North America, but not only, are doing this work. It's, it is invaluable for a lifetime of changes that need to occur because we're still living in the former past, as you shared. How do we start doing this in a way that things will actually change at the levels they need to? Well, awareness is one thing, right? And, and- Sure the World Health Organization has been working on their number, there are more and more people who are talking about it simply because we are the dominant age group in society today. Right. We have, there are more people, so let's talk about Canada alone. Mm-hmm. There are more individuals over the age of 65 than children under five. There are a lot of maybe Gen Zed, Millennials, Gen Xs as a cohort. Yeah. But we are a huge, voting block, and we don't use our power. Mm-hmm. We also have the wealth that no other generation has been able to accumulate just by virtue of having lived at the time that we did. Of course. I'm not in favor of, of, you know, generations pitting one another against- Yep pitting one another against one another. It serves no purpose. Right. And we're all products of the environment in which we grew up. So- Right it's totally unfair. But what we have to do is we have to cultivate relationships across generations. Yes. So that's concrete thing that we can all try to do. Yeah. Is to, to help younger people understand what it means to grow older today. Yeah. Uh, we need to correct people nicely if we can. Yeah. When they make ageist comments, Mm-hmm Not so easy sometimes. Sure. But I'll You know, somebody A, a classic line is, "Oh, you look good for your age." Yes. Well, that is a very ageist statement, and when you- Yeah when you dissect it, what does that mean? The assumption is because you're 60, you're supposed to look wretched. Yeah. Yes, exactly. know, you can say, "Thanks. That, that I know you meant that well, but- Yeah. it just But the reality is that that really is just perpetuating a- an ageist myth. Mm-hmm. So I think that, you know, being able to correct people nicely- Mm-hmm if possible- Mm-hmm or reminding them know, you weren't born yesterday. Mm-hmm. I think ex- we have got authority by virtue of, of the ex- life experience we have. We need to remember to use it appropriately too. Yes. I mean, there's much that we can do, but we have to educate, you know, policymakers. One of the biggest, issues that I'm There are so many issues. Yeah. And I, I don't know where to begin, but this whole new longevity- Sure requires everything to change. Our education system- Yeah our healthcare system, our policies, our benefits. know, housing. It's not that that needs to change to give me access because I'm in a wheelchair or using a walker. It's because you need to change your attitude in terms of the way in which I wanna participate in our society as an purposeful individual who wants to work perhaps, or doesn't- Mm-hmm but I still wanna contribute meaningfully. Right. So don't discard me. Don't disregard me. Right. So it, it's, it's a fallacy to not take advantage of the experience and expertise- Yeah of older people in the workforce- Yeah and outside of it. Mm-hmm. You know? In the communities. Oh, in the- Yeah in the communities in particular. Yeah. That. Yeah. So we need to We really need to retire that learn, earn, retire framework that we've grown up with. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 'Cause, and you and I both know, and you've taken multiple courses, and I have too- Mm-hmm uh, you know, going back to school will become the norm. Yeah. But we haven't started adjusting our universities or colleges to accommodate, you know, the multi-generational- Right classroom, or perhaps the interests of people who are going back to school for professional, certification and- Yeah it's happening. It's slowly happening. Credentialing- Right and getting certificates or diplomas. It's not happening fast enough to accommodate- Mm all the changes. And according to the research I've done, 20 and 30-year-olds today will be working into their 70s and 80s, but they will not be f- they will not travel the same, trajectory that we have. Right. They will have what, what's known as sort of portfolio careers. They'll- Yes take time off, go back to school- Mm-hmm take sabbaticals, raise their children. Right. There isn't, there won't be as much pressure. There isn't already as much pressure- Right to do everything in a short period of time because we're living so much longer. Exactly. So how did that start to change? Where did the changes occur for that to become, quote-unquote, a new norm, if it is a norm at this point? I don't think it is normalized yet. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, uh, even if you look at healthcare, we still have far too many pediatricians, and we have very few geriatricians, you know? That's what I mean about policy and institutions have to change. Right. You have to start rewarding or paying geriatricians if you need, if you have an older population. An older one than you have young people. Yeah. You need to bring about, more places and residencies for, wanna study geriatricians, but you need to geriatrics. I mean- Geri- You need, you need to reward them financially too. Yeah. You have to incentivize- Of course employers to keep- Of course to keep their employees in place. Yeah. Not everybody wants to leave the workforce in their 60s. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Some may. Mm-hmm. And some don't belong there, and maybe- Right it's a great excuse to get rid of them. However- Mm-hmm um, there are many who would love a promotion or would love to get the professional training that's accorded to a younger employee, but isn't given- Yeah to an older employee. All of those things that have been normalized in the past- Yeah as well as the understanding that, for instance, in the book we go into it a bit, retirement. You know, if I'm a, an employee who loves what I'm doing, and I'm 63- Mm-hmm you know, o- offer me, something other than maybe the senior position I have. Maybe I wanna relegate, you know, one half of that to mentoring, colleagues younger or coming in. Use my expertise wisely. Right. Offer me- Right. Yes four days there are so many different things, but our, our opportunities are limited when we think in the old paradigm. Mm-hmm. And that's what most of us do, you know? Right. Get rid of them. Instead of using them in another capacity- Right we get rid of them. And there's also the belief that when people are near retirement age, they're gonna leave. Well, the research also shows that is not the case. Yeah. And that it's cheaper to k- to sometimes keep these people than to, to recruit and try to retain younger people who have a tendency perhaps not to- Right to stay in the job. Right. There's so much- Right so many myths around older, adults and, and the workforce, such as they'll take more absenteeism. Mm. It's not true. Mm-mm. They take less. Mm-hmm. You know? They tend to- Yeah be very committed and loyal. That's not to say- Yeah that others are not. Of course. But that's- Yeah but that is, that is a characteristic of, of- Yeah that generation. So- Yeah there are so many myths that need to be, Un, di- disproven or- Right demonstrated and, and- Yeah not, you can only do that when you're, you're exposed to it. Right. And there hasn't been that much exposure, and there's not that much conversation about aging- Right, right in workforce or elsewhere. Yeah, yeah. Other than negative. It's always seen as- Yes, yep a nuisance, a cost, rather than seeing the opportunity- Yeah that is there for, us to engage older adults, older Canadians in new and different ways. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Just relegating them to the sidelines, and they're being overlooked, which is a productivity issue for Canada. Right. Of course. And- So we're not age prepared at all. And, and this is, this is why this, this conversation is so important, because those of us in the audience who don't, who didn't even realize this was a "thing" are starting to reflect now, going, "Wait a minute." I hope so. "Where am I?" Exactly. Yeah. Where am I on this continuum in terms of understanding awareness, and what do I want to do? Exactly. And the premise of our show, what do I want to do for you, by you, because of you? What do I want to do? How do I want my next- Exactly thrive after 45, let's say another 40 years minimum. Let's go longer, right? For sure. What do, what, what is that going to look like for you? And as your lives are opening up because you're hitting the mid-life continuum- Mm this is an opportune time to start with the seed planting, because paradigms do get to change, and we get to start to pull that apart and discover what paradigm are we operating under. That's right. And what can we do? And that's a beautiful thing about your book, which I am so honored to have my own copy. Um, what we can start to do- Mm-hmm individually- Yeah to start our own path forward, and what that might look like, right? It's like, so paradigms guide us, which is useful. They blind us, and they bind us. Ah. And so we really need... And, and we go into that a lot in the book, and we- Mm-hmm the first part of the book situates ageism in its historical, context and helps people understand, you know, where it came from and why it exists. And, you know, briefly, you stated it in the introduction. You know, it was a post-war- phenomenon. It, but it continues, unfortunately- Yeah without most people understanding what it looks like, what it sounds like, what it feels like, and to us as a society. But the second part of the book provides a number of different and competencies that everybody can engage in- Mm to, to in fact, you know, change the way they may have been thinking about growing older. Mm-hmm. Mm. the TEDx talk that I did was called Embrace Age With a Longevity Mindset, and a lot of the work I did for that was based on Becca Levy's research that, that states that if you have a positive mindset about growing older- Mm-hmm you will live 7.5 years longer- Wow than if you didn't. And- Wow having a negative belief system about aging is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. That's how powerful ageism is. Wow. And that's based on thousands and thousands- Yeah of cases, you know? Yeah. And there's, there's increased research. She just recently came out with a study in 2026, in March of this year, to say that we can actually improve our, our cognitive and physical wellbeing as we age into our and 90s. Now, people never would have believed that before. No, no. But we do We have heard about neuroplasticity. Yes. We've heard about, you know, telomeres. We, you know, lengthening, shorten. I mean, we're getting a better sense. And when I talk about longevity, I'm not talking about the biological, aspects of, you know, staying alive for longer. Right. You know? Why add years to your life if the years are not good? I really having a, a health span alongside- Mm you know, our, our lifespan. Mm-hmm. And that's really what this book is you know, resetting your beliefs about what it means to Yeah and then doing something about it. It's very- Yeah action, action-oriented. And we did this bec- we wrote it because we, I h- started a, a, a course called RESET- Yeah with Deb- Deborah, who was working with me at the time, and it w- it was such a and it was researched independently by T- Metropolitan Mus- Toronto Metro University. Yeah. And, it was such a success, we thought, "Oh my gosh, we need to get the word out to more people." Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And that's one of, one of the reasons why we wrote it. Yeah. The other was for m- because I felt so strongly that it was through a program such as this that I overheard on the radio that I recognized what ageism was. Mm. Prior to that, I had I didn't know anything about it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So. And what I think is absolutely imperative that we understand is that your work is not just, "This is kinda how I dealt with it, and here you can go and do this for yourself." You are doing the research. You have done- Yeah a cross-section of deep- digging to really grasp what's going on and why. Yeah. And thank you for that inquisitive, brilliant mind of yours because we are, I'm not gonna say riding on the coattails, but you'll understand kind of what I mean in that you're giving us valuable research, very important information that we get to take and move forward in our lives as individuals. And won't that be powerful as individuals tap into the work you've done in this book that is so brilliant, to see what we can do in our own lives? And we know the ripple effect, don't we? Yes, we do. But you, w- one of the things I think th- that I wanna emphasize as well is that- Mm-hmm there are numerous benefits to growing older, and we never talk about that. Mm. Right? Absolutely. P- people are not aware how many benefits there are. You know, we have- Mm our brains actually stop growing at age 30. And, and, that's not to say they don't change or become better. Sure. It's ca- it's beco- it's called crystallized intelligence. It's like, it's like adding to the hard drive. it improves our problem-solving. w- we're able to judge things better. Mm-hmm. prior to that, we have what's known as fluid intelligence. So that's why it's so cool when you can get various generations together, 'cause they different problem-solving skills. Some are faster, some are, f- do things differently and better. Yeah. But as we get older, you know, we have greater emotional regulation. Yeah. Our egos are not quite as much in the- Yeah forefront. Mm-hmm. Uh, we become more empathetic- Mm-hmm compassionate. We wanna leave a legacy. Mm-hmm. We're driven more by purpose and, and meaningful contribution. Yeah. and we t- we are also happier. There's- Mm there's a lot of research. Jonathan Rauch did a book called The U-Curve of Happiness. don't know if you know it. No, I haven't heard of it. Oh, it's very interesting. At the... He says that at the beginning of life, as children, and at the end of life, we tend to be the happiest. Happiest. Because in the middle, in the middle we have, you know, those stressful years of raising- Yeah children, buying homes, having jar, jobs- Mm-hmm mortgages, financial challenges, and all of that. Yeah. But once we come out of that- We tend to be happier. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, there are all sorts of variables of course in that. Of course. Yeah. But, but it's... I mean, so... And if you speak to, in particular, ol- older women, you know, who've gone through menopause- Yeah who are no longer as concerned about w- what they look like or how they're perceived- Mm-hmm they really are much more, s- self-satisfied and don't give as much of a damn about- Right some of the things used to care deeply about- Yeah. Yeah that were f- you know, in part. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not always, but you know. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. are pieces of us that we've had to adapt to, and we build it, our identity, through- Right as you talked earlier, the roles that we have in life. And as we keep, hopefully, moving forward in terms of our lifespan, then we have opportunity to start uncover who we are as a person. And all those things that you just shared are so valuable, and they're just sitting waiting for us to be able to access, right? Mm-hmm. You know, the other re- reality, Denise, is you and I- Yeah both have grandchildren, and that is that our grandchildren are expected to have an average life expectancy of about 100. Yeah. This longevity isn't just capping out at 90. Right. Things are changing so rapidly in medical science, in, in biology, in pharmaceuticals. Right. Our lives are extend, are being extended. Mm-hmm. Assuming we don't have any comorbidities, Right health is generally good. Right. But things to think that your grandchildren may have an average lifespan of 100- Yeah is remarkable. It is. That means some of them may be 120 and others only 80. Right. Yeah. You know? Now our lifespan's about 82 in Canada. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. one of the fastest growing, age groups is over the age of 80. Mm-hmm. You know, and we have... I, I know the number, but I'm not gonna state it because I'll get it wrong, but hundreds of thousands of centenarians in this country. Mm-hmm. You know? So- Yeah it's, it's remarkable. And- Right things are changing all the time, but we're not- Right. But we're- adapting fast enough. know? The institutions that surround us are not adapting f- fast enough, and they need to. And is that, is new phenomenon where institutions aren't adapting fast enough? Is that atypical? Like... You know, I, I- What do you think? I think that we knew-- we, we, we heard about demographics already, I think in the book Echo in the 1980s, but nobody paid attention, right? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think it's very typical that until something is on top of us- we all, then we react, but it's usually we're not proactive enough. Right. Right. Yeah. And so we've known about this. Mm-hmm. I mean, demography is something that was calculated- Right a long time ago, you know, and yet nobody has paid sufficient attention. Mm-hmm. So I think that's, you know- Yeah that belongs to all of us. Right. Right. And I don't know-- But now, for instance, I'm trying to speak to, to, politicians regularly. Sure. Do you think it's, it's-- They have other priorities, and I understand. I understand the trade war. I understand defense. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. However, I don't think we can afford to keep putting burner and not adapt- Yeah the various, you know- Ways in which we are living, Right without causing more harm, and eventually harming productivity too, so- Hmm. Yeah. I can't wait to hear some of those conversations you're gonna be able to get into, because I feel that- I know it is going to happen. Yep. Well, I'm putting out- Right? pitches all the time, but- Absolutely they're not, not necessarily taken up. I've tried before. Yeah. I've had articles published in newspapers, but- Sure not as often as I've put, pitched them. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, keep doing what you're doing, because we, we love your charge for a variety of reasons. Thank you. And we, we get to support this whole concept, and it's a, it's important for all. It's not just a- It is 45 and thriving after 45. It's, it's a we get older every day. That's right. From the day we're born, and pre, right? Like, it's just, it's so- It is comical to actually think, well, we all a- like, think about it. We are all aging every second of every day. Like, it's just life. That's how it happens, so- So this book, this book, I wanna say, although- Mm-hmm it certainly is, um, looking at people in transition, it is especially relevant to younger people, especially younger women- Sure who are befo- under 45. 'Cause if they- Mm-hmm could recognize and slow down a bit, and enjoy and smell the roses a bit more than you and I did, who pushed, pushed, pushed- Sure because we were early feminists, you know- Mm-hmm and wanted to have those senior positions that most women of former- Yeah generations didn't have. Yeah. But these women, in particular, you know, they can map out their life very differently than we did. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's one of the things that we need to help them understand. Absolutely. So the book has relevance, for people who are of all ages, but in particular those who are, moving forward at this stage. But the, you know, I was thinking- We're transitioning all the time- Yes in one way or another. Mm-hmm. Now my grandchildren are eight, 10, and 12. Yeah. They don't wanna spend as much me anymore. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's devastating. I'm, I'm trying to transition into remembering they're supposed to be flying- Yeah on- Yeah on their own soon. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. It's hard. Yeah. It, it is But- And, and I think you landed on something in that, because transition can be hard. Where we get to change that hardness is by flipping it and looking through the lens of what I call the lens of curiosity. Oh. What do I get to observe about my grandchildren, knowing how, who they were growing up and that closeness? What skills are they putting into practice that I saw when they were much younger? Mm-hmm. We can always expand the way that we look at it. That's right. And think about what is opportunities are they digging into. What a beautiful thing. I hear what you're saying, 'cause our oldest is nine, and I watch him, and it just lights my heart up to see that I started supporting him when he was just one. Yeah. And seeing him at nine is just I, I have to celebrate the positives on that. Right. Because I can go into, "I don't get to snuggle with him anymore"- I know or whatever, right? So- Yeah, exactly it's, it's transition for all of us. That's right. And isn't that a gift, right? Yeah. Really. Mm-hmm. I mean, the more transitions, the better. However, we have to be flexible and adaptable, and those are skills that we have to learn, too. Yes. And with time, they do come. We just have to be patient with ourselves very often. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. However, when we're not aware of something, then it's really hard. Yeah. So- Yeah for me, that whole in, initial awareness of what ageism was doing to me- Yeah changed, really changed my life. Yeah. Mm-hmm. W- I'm, I'm glad it did. Good. I'm so glad it did because many, many people, it changes their lives, but not for the benefit, but just for acceptance, and this is just the way life's gonna be, and we're saying exact opposite. There's so much more- Mm yet to come, and it's yours. Very. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is it that you're really hoping to achieve through your actions as author, speaker, activist? What is your big dream? I guess my, I mean, I think we've talked about it the whole time, is really reframing what it means to grow older in today's society. Yeah. Yeah. I want everyone to understand that it's the gift that it is. Yeah. Not just, the people themselves who are aging, but those- Yeah with whom they interact. Mm. You know, policymakers, you know, i- institution- I want everybody to understand that this is a natural process, that we shouldn't be talking about anti-aging, even though I know- Yeah it's a $64 billion business alone in the United States. Mm. Mm-hmm. for just, you know, makeup and, and so on. Yeah. we should stop fighting those, those wrinkles and the- know, crow's feet and And see them as something other than they are. I think that's kind of hard, to tell you the truth. Yeah. But- Yeah, yeah but y- we have to work on it. Yeah. So I always try to walk the talk. Mm-hmm. And, and I, I'm 77 years old now, and so, I always say that, you know, I only started this in my late 60s. Yeah. And I don't intend to stop anytime soon. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Simply because it's, it's really, it's like my m- mission, I guess. Yes, yes. Is to have people understand that, you know, I, I can do it, you can do it. Mm-hmm. Everyone can do it, but you have to want to do it. Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And- fight the, the tendency to- Yeah to, to diminish what it means to grow older. Yeah, yeah. And, and I think what you landed on earlier in talking about I want people understand the celebration of life. And it doesn't matter where you are on that continuum. Mm-hmm. And what a beautiful gift that we get every year on our birthday is a great way to, to land how am I going to move through my next year that I'm living right now? Mm-hmm. Right? And, and what do I want to change, and what do I want to feel about myself, through all of it? And as we get older, we've, we've alluded to it and talked about it actually, is that we get wiser in many ways for the variety of reasons, right? Yeah. And so use your wisdom to benefit you because- Yeah okay? Well, I mean, if we wanna be, really feel good, we need to have purpose beyond just ourselves. Absolutely. We need to find a way to contribute something. It, I mean, sometimes it can be walking a dog- Yeah or taking care of grandchildren. That's not, that doesn't, that's so significant in and of itself. Yeah. But some people need to do more. Mm-hmm. And the other co- the other really important part of this is, is maintaining social connection- Mm-hmm as we get older. Mm-hmm. That's one of those major dimensions of- Yeah of aging- Yeah in a that is meaningful, is- Yeah to maintain those connections, social connections. Right. Right. Yeah. So. Well, we are going to maintain our social connection. Yeah. I know this to be true. Yes. Yeah. I can only look forward to all the things we're gonna do. Absolutely. Mm. One day at a time, and I cannot wait to see what happens as we continue having our conversations- That's right and building what we are building for the purposes of the greater good. Yes. Including ourselves in that, right? Absolutely. Thank you so much- for the, for the time you spent, and I just hope your listeners really get it and- Yeah can do something with the, the conversation we had today, the way in which I did when I heard about internalized ageism 10 years ago. Right. Thank you, Helen. Thank you so, so much for your time today, your wisdom, your breadth of experience, your desire, and your mission to do the, I'm gonna call it the right thing. To keep forging ahead. And- Dissecting and getting the communication in the variety of ways, in the variety of conversations that need to happen at all levels, government and personal. And keep forging ahead, and I can't wait to have more conversation with you. This has been just incredible. I, I loved every minute of it, and we are on the precipice of big things moving slower than we want, but you know what? My father always used to say Rome was never built in a day, but we do have some urgency to it. So some of the information you shared about grandchildren living to the 100, I was like, whoa, what is that g- my brain started going into, "What is that gonna mean for my grandchildren?" I'm- Mm-hmm how can I still understand how that's- We won't gonna roll? I know. But- But, yeah. But we won't be there either. Yeah, exactly. Right. Oh, dear. Before we close, I do want to share that I am hosting a live in-person ev- event called Ignite the Inner Uprising. It's that two-day immersive gathering for women in midlife years. If you're feeling that quiet pull towards something more embodied, m- more fully you, Ignite is an extension of these k- conversations that we have here on Thrive After 45. The wait list is open. We are planning on hosting it at this point in the spring of 2027. So put your name on the wait list so you don't miss any information as things become clearer, and, we can't wait to see you in that room with us. Helen, thank you again. Thank you. It is wonderful to share conversation and learn from you. And audience, make sure you continue to do something for you, by you, because of you, because we are here to thrive after 45.