Be the CEO of your Your Health with Dana Sherwin

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Thrive after 45. I'm Denise Drinkwalter heart whisperer, midlife mirror and mentor. And every week I am so honored to share energy and space with inspiring guests whose stories reflect. So many possibilities of thriving beyond 45. Together we uncover the whispers of the heart, the power of mid my transformation, and the wisdom that fuels expansion. What happens when someone who has spent decades working inside the healthcare system suddenly experiences it from the other side as the patient? What becomes visible about the role patients play in their own care and the power of their voice within the system? Today it is an honor and a privilege to welcome Dana Sherwin to our show, She brings a perspective that's been shaped both by deep professional experience a profound personal journey. Dana has spent more than 35 years in healthcare management, executive leadership. And consulting, working across hospitals, managed care organizations, and three public accounting and consulting firms. She holds a master of Health Services administration from the University of Michigan School of Public Health and a bachelor's degree from Cornell University, and she is a fellow of the American College of Healthcare Executives today. Dana is a consultant and speaker focused on healthcare management and patient physician communication, and the founder of. Founder and CEO of the thinking patient. An initiative dedicated to helping people become more informed, confident, engaged partners in their own healthcare decisions. Dana's commitment to improving the patient experience extends beyond her consulting work. She volunteers with the Blood and Marrow Transplant Clinic Trials Network. Serves on the editorial review board. For the journal, a patient experience and contributes as a peer reviewer for the Journal of Healthcare Management. Dana's understanding of healthcare took on an even deeper meaning through her own health journey. She is almost a seven year survivor of a still stem cell transplant for a blood cancer disorder and an experience that transform the way she sees the relationship between patient and the healthcare system. Dana. Wow. What an honor and a privilege to welcome you to our show today. Thank you so much, Denise. I'm thrilled to be here. I cannot even begin to imagine, maybe you could take us through what happened when you've had all the years of experience in the healthcare system and consulting and all of the knowledge you bring to the table around that. And then when you got news of your journey that you've now been on coming up seven years, tell us how those, what happened there. So, um. This was a real wake up call for me. Um, I knew I wanted to go into the healthcare field when, since I was a teenager because my father was in the health insurance industry and he had introduced me to many different kinds of careers. But I knew I wasn't really cut out to be a doctor or a nurse or direct care professional, but I really liked working with people and setting up organizations. I did a lot of that in high school and college, and I just knew that I was good at seeing things. And in a way being a leader, having a vision of how things could work better. And so I married that with healthcare and that's sort of how I got into the field. So from a very early age, this was very important to me. And as you know, young woman in the world, I wanted to do something really important with my life and I really felt this was it. Mm-hmm. And I was obviously gung-ho for decades and even was able to have to get married and have two children, and then in my forties. I started not feeling well and I just ignored the symptoms. I did many things wrong, and I was so focused on my career and taking care of other people. I was not really taking care of myself. I was not using any higher level knowledge that I probably had inside to say, Hey, there are certain things that are not going well for me physically. I need to get checked. And many women find themselves. In their twenties, thirties, forties. And their main doctor is an OB GYN, right? Well, that's not really, that's an obstetrician gynecologist, right? It's not really, you know, people who are doctors who are trained in, uh, primary care, internal medicine, depending on what, who the person is. But O-B-G-Y-N. Should not be somebody's primary care physician. And that's where I found myself and I was in the healthcare field for all these years. Wow. So what happened was that I was really like living my life, not knowing anything was that was wrong. And I started feeling pains in my stomach and um, I was at my O-B-G-Y-N and I. Getting an annual exam. And I said, oh, I'm feeling these pains. He goes, oh, I got a good gastroenterologist for you. Let me refer you to the person. And I did. And he was, did a lot of tests and he, and um, and he said, well, one of your blood counts looks really high, I wanna send you for sonogram. And I said, oh, is it, uh, is it an emergency? He goes, oh, no, no, just you go in there. So I go in there. I'm lying on the, in the, on the table and the look on the technician's face like blew me away. He goes, I have to bring the doctor back in right away. It turns out I had a blood clot in the portal vein of my liver. Oh. It was a pretty big one. That's why I was having pain because the blood doesn't, isn't passing through properly. Oh my gosh. So, um. They said, we're sending you right over to have an MRI. I said right now, oh yes, go to have an MR. I went to have an MRI. They didn't say anything to me. I got back in my car, I'm driving home. I get a call from the gastroenterologist who says to me, do you have a hematologist? I said. Why would I have a hematologist? He says, I need you to get yourself right to the emergency room. I'm gonna recommend a hematologist to go see you. And as it turned out, I went into the hospital, I'll never forget, it was um, August 14th, um, 2003. Because we had a big blackout that day, and I'll always remember that the big blackout in New York, actually I think it was the whole northeast, we had a big blackout. And it was a blackout, but I went, it was in the emergency room, so the air condition, they had the backup generator, the, the air conditioning was on. But basically just by the, all the symptoms they diagnosed me, uh, with, uh, obviously having a blood clot, but diagnosed me with a, uh, a blood cancer disorder. It was later confirmed by other tests, but, um, so that was pretty serious. Everything on the internet said you have, um. Barely like 11 years to live. So I was about 48 at the time, and they said, you have 11 years to live. I mean, nobody said that to me directly. Right. It was what you found on the internet, which was pretty scary. Mm-hmm. So this whole thing was this life wake up call. How did I not know? How did I not get care earlier? How did I not know? And obviously there's, you know, more to the story in terms of my progression because my stem cell transplant didn't have till about, uh, didn't happen till about 15 years later. 'cause I was able to live fairly normally. Okay with this blood cancer, I needed to be monitored. I needed some other treatments, but no drugs, no nothing. And then the disease, um, transformed into from having too much blood in your system to having too little blood in your system. The bone marrow starts shutting down, so. You get to a point where, and there's no cure for this disease except for stem cell transplant. Mm. So I avoided having a stem cell transplant for many years. They wanted me to, doctors wanted me to go earlier, but my kids were still in high school. They were about to go into college. Uh, my head was wrapped around so many things for my family, and I was still feeling okay until I wasn't. And when my health crashed, I had really no other choice, and I was very fortunate that the, um, national Marrow, uh, dome Marrow program. Um, was able to make a match with my blood. Some people can use siblings, but I couldn't. And so, um, they did make this wonderful match. I will be forever grateful to this donor. Um, and it's a, you know, an amazing, wonderful, um, program that serves people, you know, around the world, right? And so my stem cell transplant was successful in 2019. Um, six months later we had CID. We had some issues getting care during COVID, but basically I was okay. Um, and, um, you know, over the years, my health, I got started getting stronger and my health started getting better, but I was really not in a physical or mental condition to think about returning to the work life, the professional life that I had before. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Those pieces. There's one thing that keeps coming through loud and clear, and it's probably because the premise of our show is based on this, but how we as women, well, yeah, there's a niggling, but you know what, I can push through. I got this right. Everything you spoke about, and then, well, my children need me because the care, you know. Peak times right now in high school moving into, you know, postgraduate kind of thing. It's like, ugh. What advice, what learning can you share with our audience? Because I am sure those listening have their hand up going and. Nobody can see me, but I hear you because that's what I'm doing right now. I think it'll disappear. I can do this until I really have to. What advice do you have based on your experience? Okay, so there are a couple things that I know I did wrong and then other things that I learned a, a along the way. Sure. And um, and so obviously my background in healthcare administration and my master's degree did not help me at all. As this, that the experience of being a patient is a totally different thing than really understanding how a healthcare system works. Mm-hmm. But once you are a patient, you understand really the understanding of how the healthcare system works is helpful. I'm not saying it wasn't helpful, of course, in my communication and everything. So basically it boils down to one, as I mentioned, have a primary care physician, internist. Yes. I don't know if they have a different, different terminology in Canada than they do in the United. States, but it's really important that you have somebody who you're connected with, that you form a relationship with that sees you at least once a year, uh, more often if you have, if you're pre-diabetic, you have high cholesterol, if you have any inkling of anything else, because that relationship is so important. Somebody you feel really comfortable. Speaking with sharing who you are now, a lot of people have problems sharing who they are and, and it's not even, not that those kind of problems, but an OB, GYN isn't trained to ask those, of course, kind of questions. And to get into that, um, and to someone for a doctor to understand in a way, what is your home environment like, what's your financial situation like? And I'm not saying the details are your tax returns of course, but what I'm saying is. You know, what's your insurance coverage? Can you afford the medications I'm prescribing? If not, let me help you find a social program to help you pay for those medications. Or do you, you know, need a support group for your particular chronic illness or, um, okay. So all those things, that relationship is so important. And you know, some people are luckier that they find somebody earlier in their life they get to stick with, and then eventually the doctor will age out or you will age out. You'll need a different kind of doctor. Right? Right. Um, when you're older, and I found this out also, I was fortunate that somebody, um, referred me to a geriatrician and I don't, again, I don't know if they have geriatricians in Canada, but doctors who specific their internal medicine family practice physicians who specialize in the care of the elderly. And, and, and you say elderly, it's not just, it's just older people. Maybe even you could be 50 and seeing, um, a geriatrician so important because these doctors are trained to understand. That certain diseases progress differently in older people than they do in younger people. Certain medications have an effect on older people versus younger people. The, the mixing of different medications, having that knowledge, is this a, is this an age related issue or is it some type of ge uh, genetic, um, issue? Right. What, what, what is it? They are trained to know this, and really when I. Uh, a few years ago I was fortunate that I needed a new, uh, doctor geriatric, a new primary care doctor, right? Because my insurance changed. And when I was referred to this doctor and he was the geriatric specialist, I thought, oh, I think this will really work 'cause I have a complex, um, right. Process. And I need a doctor who's also gonna communicate well with my hematologist oncologist, who is the doctor that I see most frequently. And so having the right doctor and forming that relationship early, I'm talking about in your twenties or at least in your thirties, find a primary care physician. You find a pediatrician for your children, right? And you could spend hours, days, weeks, finding, let me see that right, doctor, or, I don't like the way he speaks to me. I'm gonna find another one. Well. Spend that same time finding your own doctor, who you're gonna have this relationship with. And that explains things well to you. Is connected. Connected in access ways to the healthcare system. So that, that's number one. Number two, there's so many, um, so many genetic testing. Um mm-hmm. Uh, opportunities available to people these days. And 20 years ago, there wasn't really as much, things have changed, um, medicine and genetic. Um, the field of genetic medicine has advanced so much. In fact, genetic medicine has advanced far beyond the ability of. W practicing doctors to keep up because it's so huge. Wow. Which is why people will, some, um, big hospital programs will have its own separate genetic science unit that some doctors will then refer people. Okay, why don't you get this panel of genetic tests? And the main purpose is not to. Scare the living daylights outta somebody. Yeah. The main purpose is to identify areas where you may be at risk. Yeah. Where you may be at risk. And it's not just breast cancer anymore, it's all kinds of cancers or other kinds of disorders. And what are, what are your tendencies? Now it, it may just say, you know, oh, you're at average risk, which is a great answer. I'm at average risk. It still means you're at risk, but you are at average risk. So if the test shows that you're at higher risk. This is something for you to pay attention to, right? So that's, that's doctor's number one. Genetic testing is number two and number three. You have to be the CEO of your own health. Thank you. You have to be in charge of your own health. You have to be the one who knows the most about you. Mm-hmm. And so this was interesting. I learned this recently, some statistic, uh, sort of like how it all sort of, all pe. Puzzles, pieces of the puzzle fit in together, right. But eight, supposedly 85% of diagnosis that a doctor makes. They don't even need a test. And they don't even, they don't even, um, they don't need a test or, um, just based on the, the description of the symptoms that the patient is describing to the doctor, meaning. The communication between the doctor and the patient is so important. So going back to being the CEO of your own health, you need to understand you, you under, you understand your conditions, the medications you're taking. Mm-hmm. If something is off for you, you probably need to like journal it, track it, monitor it. People who have migraine headaches are really used to doing that because you know, they're seeing like a pain medicine doctor and the doctor tells them, okay, it'd be helpful if you then track the pain that you have so we can follow, and what are the conditions under which you, the headache is worse. What makes the headache better? How long does it last? That could be applied to anything that's an aberration to your health. Mm-hmm. Keeping your own records and your own journal. So you have sort of an evidence-based discussion with your doctor about what's going on with you, and also to the extent that you can then not withhold any of the sensitive information that a lot of people withhold from doctors. Like how much do you smoke? How much do you drink? Right? Well, do you take any drugs? Do you supplement any sexual practices that may put you at risk? Yep. If you more open, you are. Or even as simple as, and I like to tell this story because like a lot of people can relate to it. If you are a big like coffee drinker and you stop drinking, you would just say, I don't wanna drink coffee anymore. You stop drinking coffee suddenly, and then all of a sudden, maybe like a few days later, you're having tremendous headaches. Yeah. And I'm gonna go to the doctor, I'm not feeling well. And you fail to tell the doctor. Then you stop drinking coffee. That's the doctor will say, have some coffee. Your headache will go right. Exactly. So that's just sort of a very, you know, uh, general example of why, of why it's so important. I mean, if you're taking supplements, vitamins, yeah. All these things you need to tell the doctor. You want the doctor one to have a real good picture. Yeah. Of, yeah. What is going on with you physically, mentally, psychologically, environmentally, all that kind of stuff. To the extent of your ability, you should de plan that in advance. So you're very succinct because you know how short, I don't know, in Canada, are the doctor's appointments like 15 minutes long? Yes, yes, yes. Yep. So that's a, so that's a real issue. Um. Mm-hmm. I think that, um, that it's important. It's also important for the doctor to know that you are focused. Organized, concise, and that you are wanna be in part work in partnership with that doctor. Right? So these are very important things. Yes. Yeah. You can even, you know, I got asked a question recently, well what if you're like, what if you're shy and you really, you don't like really talking to people you don't really know? Well, this is a little bit of a different situation talking to a doctor because you're doing this for yourself, right? You know, you're not doing it to, the interaction is not about to make an impression or to have, you know, the, the interaction is about you all. About you and it. So it's basically comes back to taking care of you and shy people came. When you prepare in advance, then you can actually read from a script. The doctor doesn't care, right? The doctor wants you to know. That he wa doctor wants you, wants to see that you really care and are focused on your own health and that whatever the doctor will recommend. You know, through a discussion and understanding of what a patient needs that you will follow through that you Exactly, yeah. Will show up for that. You'll show up for appointments. Mm-hmm. That you will take your medicines that are prescribed, that you will let the doctor know. So I would say those are the three things that I, that have really crystallized for me going through this personal health journey. Yeah. I really. Admire and love your, um, context around. Take your notes, go in, read the notes, it doesn't matter. That's the real black and white. And when we do something, um, and when we present we're we are being the ceo, CEO of our life and our health, and so you are becoming your own advocate, just like you shared. You hunt around for your pediatrician, why would you not do the same service and give yourself the same opportunities that you do for everybody else in your family? Right? So I love what you're saying because I also suspect I know when I do. Right now, very rarely because I'm very fortunate, but I know that can change at any moment. But when I go into the doctor, if there's something that's been going on, I try to stay right on topic. I don't get into the emotion around what might be occurring, and that's sometimes hard to do. But if you have your anecdotal notes and you're just reading them, it helps you stay. Probably like you're talking the focus piece, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, look, it's, it's okay to be, um, emotional, um, true, but to be controlled. So yeah, you're emotional. You're say you doctor knows you're a real person. You care about your health. Sure. If you don't stop. You know, whether it's crying or not being able to speak, then it's really hampering the process. And the fact is, is that this is your time, this is doctor's time is very valuable time. It's like you have this resource in front of you Yes. That you wanna take advantage of. It's like you go into an expensive restaurant and it's this beautiful meal and it's expensive. This is the same way you're sitting with a doctor for 15 minutes. This is a meal for your health. Yeah. That take advantage of this opportunity. So, so come back to, you know, I'm doing this for me. Yeah. And I do wanna get outta here in 15 minutes. 'cause I don't like seeing doctors. Right. Nobody likes seeing doctors. Exactly. Nobody wants to know there's anything wrong with them. I, of course, I experienced this, I really never knew I had family members that. We're always getting sick, or this happened or that happened or this accident. Um, yes. Older people, younger people. It was like, I never wanted to go there. I never, I always, I watched my weight. I watched my, the food I put in my mouth. I tried to exercise. I tried to do all the things so I wouldn't be sick. Well, as it turned out. I had a genetic blood cancer disorder that was outta my control, and it turns out it wasn't inherited. You can get genetic malformations in your DNA mm-hmm. Post birth due to environment or other aspects of your, you know, your own makeup, your own personal makeup. There are a lot of diseases that may be genetic that are not necessarily inherited, and that's the disease that I, that I had. Or have, or, I don't know. I guess they still call, they call it remission, so I'm not, okay. I'm not recovered. I'm in remission. I do not have a blood cancer disorder right now because I have the beautiful blood of a stranger who donated this blood to me. Amazing. Amazing. Is there a question that you feel people should. Always ask their doctors one question. Yes. So, um, this question has come up for me recently, um, as well. Um, and I actually have, uh, two answers to this question. But the first answer that I think is probably be the most surprising to people is the question. Ask the doctor the question you are most afraid to ask. Mm. What is the question you are most afraid to ask? Whether it's, how is this gonna affect my life? What does this mean to my health? Mm-hmm. What are the risks of this? Mm-hmm. What else could I be doing? How can I make it go away? Yeah. You know, how long am I gonna live? All those things. Mm-hmm. Will I pass this on to my children? What is the question you are most afraid to ask? Mm-hmm. And you can Google it or put it through ai. You know, you can put all this, ask the question to ai. But you should always ask the doctor this question. Mm-hmm. What are you afraid to ask? Mm-hmm. Alright. And so the second question that I would answer, you should always ask. Yeah. What else I, what else can I be doing to improve my health? Okay, so you go through all this thing, I have these symptoms. I'm, he diagnoses you. You're gonna go for these tests. You're probably gonna Yeah. Get medication, all that. It's like a lot. It's still a lot. Yeah. You should always say, what else should I be doing to take care of my health? And what should I be looking out for and how should I communicate with you in between appointments? Ooh, good one. If I experience any of these things. Very, I love those. Wow. I can feel a shift in my body as you're sharing those questions, because what's coming through for me is exactly what you talked about at the beginning, becoming the CEO of your own life. And there you are taking ownership. You are asking the hard questions to get clarity from the doctor's perspective. What is it that needs to be done, that I have control of, love that. Wow. So beautiful. Is there anything that you would love to share with our audience that we haven't talked about that you think, you know what, if I can leave you with one more golden nugget, this is it. Well, I have many, but I'm gonna pick one. So that just means doing this to bring you back on the show. That's all. Yeah. Yes. So, um, uh. Um, so I think that people don't realize how important it's to prepare for their appointments with doctors. So preparing. So take the time a few days before your appointment. I mean it, I know in the US sometimes it takes months to get an appointment with a specialist, right? Yep. Yeah. And so you have months in a way to prepare and there's a lot of ways to prepare for an appointment, but it is so important and to write it down in sort of an organized way. Mm-hmm. So that you can develop your questions. What should I be asking the doctor? Yeah. What previous tests you might have had that you want follow up on, or you wanna understand how it might relate to some other thing that you're feeling or thinking about. What kind of re if it's a really, uh, very complex disease, what kinds of research, um, are being done around the country mm-hmm. To, um, maybe offer you an opportunity to, you know, well not just participate, but maybe benefit for some of these trials that are going on. Mm-hmm. Um, you want to. Also share other things that other doctors have told you. And the way to really have it all done in a focus, concise way is to put it in writing. And if you do have a time, time, and even if it's a few days before the appointment, as things come to mind, then you have time to. Write, you know, write it down and include it on the list. What are your, what are your questions? What's the follow up? Um, you may wanna ask the doctor about, um, experiences with other similar patients. Yes. Yes. You may wanna ask the doctor. About, um, patient communities and the available patient communities and support communities to help you through your journey. Mm-hmm. You know, people with diabetes, with different cancers, with, with rare diseases. You want to, you know. Left to, unfortunately right now it's left to every individual to do their own like preparation. I mean, maybe AI in the future or right for people who are really on top of things. You know, you put in AI and you can still do this. What are the questions I should be asking my doctor? But the preparation is really important and for two reasons. So one is that you come in. Focused on what you wanna accomplish to that visit. Mm-hmm. You have this agenda and you, and so you also wanna let the doctor know that you've prepared this in advance, but we could discuss it as we go through it or we could get back to it. Or does he wanna hear, he or she wanna hear everything first upfront. But it relieves you of the issue of memory. Yeah. But first, by writing it down, it will be embedded in your memory to a great degree. You write it down. Yep. Over even a couple days. You reread it before you go into your appointment. It will be embedded. It frees up your brain to have that interaction so you could react and interact with the doctor. As the doctor's talking, you could say, oh, I don't really understand that. Could you explain that to me? Better? It frees your mind. Mm-hmm. And you know, a lot of people, um, understand. The importance of decluttering, right? Decluttering because it peace of mind to open up other possibilities. I mean, there are obviously decluttering specialists and life coaches who really teach people methods for decluttering. Well, this is another decluttering method that is so important for your health. So when you're in that appointment. You are focused and you are engaged and you can ask those questions and interact or, or even say, you know what? I don't really understand. I need to think about it some more. Can you give me other resources? But you need to free your brain and mm-hmm. You know, I also suggest that people in the appointment write little notes down. Yes. So they don't forget. I think that's important. I always go to the doctor with a notebook, um, on my lap. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I would say. The preparing for appointments and writing things down mm-hmm. Are just so important for you to be mentally prepared. Yeah. It's about and, and not just like this physical preparation and practical prep preparation. It's also for the emotional strength and courage to go into. It's like you're going into a test. Yeah. You're going into this test. Prepare to the best of your ability. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. And there's no failure. There's no downside. No. Yeah. And because every time you do this, you just get better and better and more confidence each time you do this. Yeah. I, it's exactly what's coming through. The more you practice, the better you're gonna get at it. Right. It's not gonna be as foreign. One thing that, um. I know we did. It was really intense. Um, our mother-in-law was diagnosed with brain cancer and it was stage four and the whole thing, so it, because I am a note taker, I couldn't keep up and I, so I asked for permission to take a voice note. Um, and then I was able to share it with family who were overseas at the time and they said they approved that. So that's another avenue that if everything is too much and the doctor says it's okay, but you have to ask permission to do such. Right. But it's another avenue I've used in the past and I've still have the voice note today. Yeah. So I don't know if you've ever done anything like that, but I know for me that that was helpful when I had a lot of information coming at me and I knew the appointment it wasn't, you know. A very minor thing. It was a life altering, changing thing that I knew I was emotionally charged. Um, and so was a family that was able to be present. So that was a helpful piece when the doctor also said, yes, you can do that. Yes. Uh, so I think yes, it is definitely on the list of things that you could do. Mm-hmm. Could to make the process go smoother, you could also ask a family member or a friend to come to take notes. Mm, true. Right? Yeah. But I think the voice note thing is great and I. Rarely heard that a doctor will say no to that. Yeah, yeah. Right. Particularly in this era where, um, doctor practices are using AI dictation more and more. So Yeah. You know, it's, it's basically you are doing it to ensure that you have a complete record of that visit. So I think that's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dana. We are so honored to share in your brilliance. Um, there's a reason always, I feel that connections have been made and we've been brought together to have this conversation today. And I believe in my heart that there are so many people listening, women, men, doesn't matter. This journey is so important for you to be the CEO of your life and your health. And it starts today. Anytime you decide this is going to be happening for me and your experience, not only with your work life, but your own unfortunate series of events that you couldn't change, it just was what was happening in your body and you are responding to it, and I'm sure there's been. Quite the journey and there will continue to be, but I'm glad to hear that you are in remission. We are so happy for you and it's been an honor to have this conversation and share space with you. Keep doing. Your incredible work. You are so involved in so many incredible organizations and supporting so many people with your wisdom, we will have in the show notes how people can find you, um, because you've given so much great advice, like the tips you've provided are actionable and doable. And when we become, again, our CEO of our own life and our own health. We can't do anything but better ourselves just through this knowledge. So thank you again for being here. It's been an honor and a privilege to have you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Denise. Appreciate it. Before we close, I do want to share something that's been coming through and it is being organized behind the scenes. It is in November. I am creating a live in-person experience called Ignite the Inner Uprising. It will be a two day immersive gathering for up to 1200 women in midlife years who are feeling a quiet pull towards being more embodied. Tuning into who they are as a person, as a woman, not with all the roles that they currently identify themselves through. So Ignite is an extension of these types of conversations where reflection becomes embodiment. Insights start to become integrated and we're women who have held so much for everybody else gathered to stand fully in your own sovereignty. So if something in our conversation stirred in you today, wonderful, we are honored to be part of that. And if your body has been leaning in. That's not an accident. The wait list is open now. So if Ignite feels like something is available for your future self, we wanna thank you and we want to invite you to add your name to the wait list to find out more. The link will be in our show notes, and as always, make sure you share, follow, leave a review so that more women can find these incredible conversations. There will be a place for us to gather. Have a wonderful day, and thrive after 45.