Calling the Shots in Midlife with Angela Burk

Denise 0:00

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Thrive After 45. I'm Denise Drinkwalter, midlife mentor and mirrorer. And every week, I am so honored to share energy and space with inspiring guests whose stories reflect so many possibilities of thriving beyond 45. Together, we'll uncover the whispers of the heart, the power of midlife transformation, and the wisdom that fuels expansion because when one woman turns her light on, the rest of the room catches fire Have you ever looked around at the life you've built, a good life, one you worked really hard for, and quietly wondered if it still really fits? My guest today has spent more than 30 years building a career in marketing and leadership while raising a family, and in her words, doing a pretty solid job of checking all the boxes. Midlife arrived and started asking questions about those boxes. Who put them there? Which ones still matter? And which ones were never really hers to begin with? These questions became a book, Real Girls Guide, to Midlife, followed by a companion workbook and a growing community built around honest conversations about women and what they actually want now. Through her books, speaking workshops, and content, Angela has reached thousands of women who are ready to take a good look at the roles, expectations, habits, and the rules they've been gathered all along the way, and they decide what stays, what goes, and what this next chapter could actually look like. She'll be the first to tell you she's not a coach, she's not a guru, and she's not a therapist. Angela is a woman who started asking better questions and then invited the rest of us to ask them, too. It is such an honor and a privilege to share this time and space with Angela Burke today on our show.

Angela 2:26

Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. What a great intro. Yeah. I think I should have you, introduce me every day. Sure. I would love. I can do that. I would love... I would love to. Yeah. Good. I would love to have that intro. Yeah. it's so incredible because sometimes when we hear other people speak about whom we are based on the questions that I ask all of my guests, and they just fill it in going, "Oh, yeah, I do this, and I did that," and then the way it comes together, some people are like, "Whoa, I guess that is me." But isn't that fun, right? Yeah. Because sometimes we just don't give ourselves, we sometimes, a lot of times, don't give ourselves- Yeah credit where credit's due, do we? No, we don't. And I think, it's probably- I sometimes wonder, like why? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Why- w- how is this ingrained in us? And I think that there's some modeling that probably happens. Mm-hmm. And I also think, this is an interesting one, I also think that in some ways if I look at just myself, and I saw this echoed a lot, The Real Girl's Guide to Midlife, which was, at, of us are really good at certain roles. I know I'm very capable. I like being capable. Yeah. I like being the fixer and the planner and the connector, builder, and I like to know that people turn to me when things are just messy. Yeah. and, and I get rewarded in that way. I don't always get great rewards, but I do get rewarded. And so some of it is a little bit- self-fulfilling, Yeah. Yeah. until you get to a point and you're like, "Wait a second, I'm exhausted all the time." Yeah. Mm. I'm saying yes to things I want to say no to. Something's gotta give. Mm-hmm. But it's a very hard shift to make- Yeah think. Yeah. I would say absolutely true. And some of us decide, I'm guessing one or two things. I'm gonna really look at this and do what's really going on here, or I'm just gonna put pedal to the metal and I'm just gonna forge through. Yeah. And sometimes when we do that, not always, but frequently, things start falling apart. Yeah. Whether it's our relationships- Mm whether it's our health- Mm whether it's our, all kinds of things can start to occur- Sure because we're putting so much pressure on that, that it doesn't turn out to be a diamond in the end. Oh, that's a good one. We... Right? Yeah. Like- That's a good one we literally disintegrate ourselves and f- and for what at the end of the day, right?

Denise 4:52

Yeah. Interesting. When you were talking about, you get rewarded for giving out and doing and supporting and helping in your roles- Mm-hmm when you look back in your childhood, is there something, is there a through line? Mm. Is there s- yeah, something you see- Yeah that's how y- you were as a youngster?

Angela 5:16

It's not been created past and filled in to the cracks? Yeah. I can definitely see the through line, and it, what was interesting was the way I constructed the book, Girls Guide, I knew that I wanted it to be some of my story- Mm-hmm and I wanted it to be stories from other women, and then I also wanted to get expert opinions, right? Right. And saw, not only did I notice my own through line- Sure but I saw a lot of commonalities in the women who gave commentary and sha- and so graciously, by the way- Mm shared their story for the construction of the book, regardless of the topic. And a lot of the through lines, I'll, I'll speak to it- Yes from my own perspective and the dots to, to the other women in the book. and really- Sure a lot of women since I've met. Mm-hmm. And that is, for me personally- I was the oldest. I am the oldest. Mm-hmm. think that comes with some expectations, n- a lot of which are unwritten- Right they evolve. I think that the other one for me became, bit of people pleasing. Mm-hmm. But that was kind of wrapped up in this idea that I did not want to make waves. Right. I didn't to cause, strife or strain for- Yeah my mom who was, you know, a, a young mom. She was a single mom. Mm-hmm. She worked, and so m- I felt my job was to keep the peace. It was- Mm to just keep everything even keeled, to not cause grief, to not cause waves, and that then I think bled into becoming- Mm an extreme people pleaser, and that then bled into becoming somebody who was reliable and dependable. And, and I don't, I don't, I don't dislike those things. Right. they became kind of my entire identity. And then I traded, I think my currency, I, I traded on competence. Mm. You know, being highly, highly competent. And what that, and how that showed up is it showed up in the way I approached school. Right. You know, I was a very diligent student. It showed up in the way I approach work. I gave always, always, always more than was, was expected of me. Yeah. It showed up in my, my, my marriage and my relationship, and I think I stayed a lot longer because I felt like my k- I had to give my kids an intact family. it showed up a lot in my life. Mm-hmm and so that kind of through line was- Mm-hmm very pervasive for me, and I did see it connect. 'Cause you know, when you're going through a lot of these changes, it can very much feel isolating. Absolutely. Like, oh my God, I'm the only person, like, this is only happening to me. And I think what was so- Right wonderful about the book for me, is not only was, was writing it a big challenge, but also I, it, it reinforced to me that I was never alone.

Denise 7:50

Yeah. Yeah. And I saw more commonalities than differences- Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm with the women who shared, so, you know, honestly their own stories. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's interesting what you're sharing because what's coming through for me in that is that there is a connectedness amongst and between women in particular. People, of course, but women in particular in our journey of life. Mm. And like you shared, this is my story, but when I listen to all the other stories, wow, there is a through line. There is connection. There yeah. And I think what's so valuable is that we're... When we are in all of it, it, it's like the walls are up, and all you can do is put one foot on the floor. The last thing you can think of is "Where are my sisters going through this?" Yeah. Yeah. When in actual fact- Having that door open- Mm when we're in the throes of all the crap- Mm. Yeah how do we flip that so we don't go through it so much isolated? And I believe your book is a great way. Mm. Your community and everything you're building. Yeah. Those of you who are watching on YouTube, Real Girls Guide To Midlife, absolutely love. There's a heart in the middle, and we've got just under, like, mid- mid-thir- like 35, a timeline, 35- Yeah with a big heart on the left. And 60, it looks like almost 70s. Yeah. And it could be beyond, right? But- Yeah

Angela 9:27

we need to love the midlife part. Mm. So there is a lot to love. Oh, yeah. But when, when we're in isolation, I don't think we can because we're so fragmented, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a really good point, and what was interesting about this, my own evolution with the book, was I actually had this book idea when I was 35. And so the book idea was going to be called The Real Girls Guide To Over 35, because- Yes at the time, I was, I was at a lot of different transition points. I was a new mom to two at that point. I didn't, I hadn't had my third son yet. Mm-hmm. I was in a marriage that I was starting to see cracks in, if I'm honest. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was at one of several career pivot points, right? Mm-hmm. I to adapt to these new roles. I was a wife. I was a mom. And then- Yeah you know, not that I'm a vain person, but I started to notice some changes in my appearance. Yeah. Tragic. Yeah. But, you know, you start to notice some things. Sure. And then at that time too, I, I didn't realize it because back then, 20 years ago, there was no language- No that I was aware of for perimenopause. But my cycles were starting to change then, and I didn't even key into that, right? Mm-hmm. And so I, I was looking around, and I think what I felt at that pi- at that time was, you know, it's not like I had a big circle, but everybody in my circle, my perception, everybody in my circle- Sure kind of had everything together. Everybody was- Yeah beautiful. And I was like, man, I just don't know how to do this. Mm-hmm. I'm the one that's failing here. Mm. So I started to construct this book idea, and I had... I put Do you remember those old, folders? Like the file folders? I had a red one. I still have it. Oh, yeah. so I all these book ideas into the folder. I had chapter outlines. So the, the same construction that I ultimately wrote the book with was the one that I envisioned 20 years ago. Mm-hmm. and so many different topics. Appearance, hormones, relationships, friendships, career. new identities, new roles, and I started to construct this book. Mm-hmm. And then just life got busy. Hmm. And then I... So the folder literally and figuratively got buried until I retired- Yeah and I found it again. And I was like, "Well, look at that." And I do think there's something that you said that I think is really important, and I think that there is a change today- Mm-hmm that was not pervasive 20 years ago. A, social medias wasn't a thing- Right then. Yep. and, nobody was talking about stuff. No. And I, you know, I even look back at my mom. My mom and I are 19 years apart, and my mom and I talk all the time. We talk two, three times a day, but I didn't even know, I didn't even have the questions to ask. No. And she didn't have the language to volunteer, so I think, I was real divine intervention that, you know, buried the folder for me. Yeah. Because I think in some ways I had to get through some of that stuff. Yes. And I think that I found the folder at the right time, and I think what, what I've tried to do with this book, right? And I've tried to, the women who are now in their 30s and 40s. Right. two of my sisters, who are much younger than me, but they're there. Yeah. I've tried to also get very honest and open and vulnerable about the things that, yeah, I've, I might have gone through. Mm-hmm. And here's what it looked like for me. And yet- Right at the same time, I'm still in it. I am still in it. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't, and I think that that's kind of the other message too, right? You don't get to, to, to turn in your punch card. It's not like a yogurt, you know? Ooh. With, visitor at a yogurt shop, right? Yeah. You don't get 10 punches and you get to turn in your card. It's still happening, and I think one of the other things that I loved so much about constructing the book and, and writing for Substack and writing the subsequent book and speaking is I've met so many women, and one of my- Mm favorite women that I interviewed for the book, I mean, I loved everybody, but I interviewed, she's an author, Diane Hiler, and she's 80. She was 80 at the time. Yeah. 81. Yeah. She herself wrote a book in her late 70s about grief. Mm-hmm. She lost her second husband, and she needed a way to process it. She was not a writer. Right. But she holed up in a cabin in North Carolina and wrote, and that's how she- Mm-hmm processed her grief, published a book. Mm-hmm. Which I think the rights of which have been, optioned for a, a made-for-TV movie, so she's doing something, right? Right. But one of the things I, I asked her... And then she went on to find love again. That was kind of the punchline of her story. Aww. Yeah. And I asked her, "What's been the most surprising thing about finding love at 82?" And she said that, "The parts still work, and I like it." And so it kind of, like, her whole story gave me permission. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I needed permission to go live like Diane. Yeah. I get to make the calls. Yeah. I get to decide. I, I don't wanna forget what I've been through. Yeah. I don't wanna ignore what I'm going through. Right. I don't wanna be blind to what's coming. Yeah. But I get to make the sh- I get to call the c- the shots now, and that was- Yeah one of the, I think the other through lines in the book. You know, we are at the phase- Mm-hmm where we get to call the shots. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the more we get to know who we are- through what we've gone through and start doing what you're doing.

Denise 14:12

I see what you do is going to ask the questions through- Mm a lens of curiosity. Yeah. Not to find the answer so I can run off and go and do the next thing. No. It's to sit with it, right? Explore it, understand it. Not to ask the question to get an answer- No but to ask the question to deepen our wherewithal as to really understanding who we are as a person- Yeah and a woman, right? Not through the roles and identity. Yeah. You're absolutely right, and I think what happens in midlife, like, if I just reflect back on my own, 30s and 40s- Yeah you know, life was very, very packed, right? Yeah, yeah. I, and so you had all the, you know, just start, and there, there are layers of the, the onion. You had the hormones. Yeah. You had, for those of us who were married and had kids, you had roles and identities. For those of us who were working and building careers- Yep you had that. Yeah. You had appearance. You had, you know, familiar, you know, your family dynamics. You had relationships- Yeah that you were trying to forge for yourself and on behalf of your kids. Like, you just, the onion keeps growing. Yeah. And I think what midlife has offered for many of us- Mm-hmm it's not like our life just suddenly stops, but it gets quieter. Right. Yeah. The ca- the, the stress and the chaos, it's, it's... I, like, I don't wanna pretend that, that those things don't exist. They're still there. Of course. But I have found, and the women that I- Yeah that I talk to, it's like we have just a tiny bit more space. Space, yeah. And it's not just- Yeah it's not just physical time, but it's mental space. Mm-hmm. It's emotional space. It's spiritual space. Mm-hmm. To kind of just pause and watch and observe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you kind of have a little bit of the experience to, to sort of inform, what is this stuff telling me? Right. Right. And you might not have the answers, but- Yeah that, that kind of, seeking out and being, y- you know, remaining curious and remaining interested and- Mm-hmm paying attention to the- Yes 'cause the signs are there. Yeah. They sure are. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when you get to this phase of our journey of life, I agree with you wholeheartedly, there are spaces that open us up for us. I believe midlife happens for a reason. Mm. I believe our journey has the only way it's meant to be is the way it is. Yeah. And I believe that it's very critical that we step into it wherever we are on our continuum with an open heart. Yeah. We don't have to have an open mind. We don't have to have an open, you know, don't have to throw everything on the table, but open your heart because when we do that for ourselves, 'cause you can only do it for you, by you, because of you- Mm. Yeah which is the basis of our show. Yeah. In reality, when you start to open up your heart for you, things start to change as a result. Yeah. And you don't have to do heavy, hard lifting. You just, like you shared, you start to tune in. You start to become aware. You start to ask some questions that were never available before, 'cause you couldn't, because you weren't at that phase in, right, your journey.

Angela 17:23

I totally agree with you. I think, you know, I had the opportunity to host a webinar recently with, an amazing doctor. She's an internal medicine doctor, but also a menopause specialist. And- Yeah another woman that I met on this journey who does- Mm-hmm human design. Right. So she's a Yeah. Sure. Which I had never e- been exposed to. I've done millions of other ones it feels like, but that was a new one for me. And we talked about sort of the edit that's happening for a lot of us in midlife. Mm. And it is The premise that we sort of came together on is y- this phase is not about overhauling your whole life. Right. It's not about, you know, taking every aspect of your life and sort of blowing it up and seeing where the pieces lie. It's about asking yourself a few very critical questions- Sure and then giving yourself the opportunity to sit with- Mm the possibilities, and then making- Mm a conscious decision and being intentional. At any point, with any topic, with any desire to make a change, you might go through that very easy- Mm-hmm inventory of questions and, and contemplation, and at the end go, "I'm good. I'm gonna keep it as is." Yes. There's nothing wrong with that. Doing nothing is a choice, and that is absolutely okay. And I think that the- Yeah the intentionality and the, the, inspection- Mm-hmm that we have to give ourselves. And I, you know, I come back to... I like, I like good analogies. I like food, so- Mm-hmm food analogies are always good ones for me. But- but the other one that I come back to a lot is, because I do a lot of traveling, right? My- Mm-hmm my partner, he lives in Australia. We are just, our lives are very complicated. Of course. Yes. but when you get on an airplane and the flight attendants are giving you the safety briefing- Mm-hmm and they talk about the mask, right? Right. In the los- in the event of, unlikely event of cabin pressure, whose mask do you put on first? Well, we know the answer, but would we follow that answer? This is, this, this is the perennial question because I've got to tell you, if I'm traveling with my kids, I, I cannot fathom, even today, right? I feel like I'm s- I'm, slightly more evolved, I'm slightly more in tune. Yeah. Even today if I'm traveling with one of my kids, I don't know. However, what I do know is that I can only help somebody- Exactly if I am in a position to help. Yeah. Physically can't help. If I don't have a mask on, I can't help my kid, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I can't help, you know, my next kid, or I can't help the couple in front of me or the baby behind me. So I have got to take care of myself in order to help the people that I love the most. Yeah. And I intellectually know this, but you know, it, it does pose a really good question. So I had this idea for a campaign. Like, I feel like we need to write the FAA and guide them to change the language, because it's almost like you have to just- Yeah if, if the language was, "Look, you put your mask on first because you have three seconds in order to be able to help," I, I can tell you a lot of people would do it. You would- Mm. Mm-hmm like, the, the script would flip for you. Yeah. But, but I do think that there is something to that, and I'm becoming much more aware- Yeah of the importance- Yeah of taking care of myself, whatever that looks like. Right. In, insofar as I want to be a better guide for the people that I love the most.

Denise 20:33

Mm-hmm. And, and you can't be that- Yeah if you're, if you're burnt out. If you can't see your way through, then how could you ever be there for others? No. And it brings up an interesting story that I'm gonna share, because as a principal of a school, we used to do fire drills. Right. Right? And so the idea was always people, the teachers counted and put their hands up. If there was a fist, it meant you were all good. If you had a finger, you lost somebody. Right. So- Fair enough here we are, fire department's there watching the drill, and I'm like, "Oh, yes." And then I look far, far left, and there's a teacher with one finger in the air, and I just m- I hit my panic button. My panic... It was this drill. Yeah. It's not real. But I went into overload, and the, the chief was standing beside me and he said, "Denise, what's going on?" 'Cause he could see my face freaking out. Right. nothing. I just have to go back in the building and get a child. And he looked at me. He said, "Excuse me?" What would happen if this were re- "Oh, I'm not going. You go." But my response would have been, "I'm going back in that burning building. I have a responsibility," right? Mm-hmm. And when we think about it, what good would you be? You don't even know what you're doing or looking for. No. So what you're talking about is so real. How do we move that needle- Yeah so that we do start doing this for you, by you, because of you, so we can be on top of our quote-unquote "game"- Yeah

Angela 22:11

and be there the way we want to be for everybody else by pouring into our own cups first? Yeah. How do we do this? Yeah, I think it's a really good question, and I think, you know, one of the last chapters of The Real Girl's Guide to Midlife is kind of this, this, manifesto, and there's a set of very simple exercises. But I'll even, simplify it even further. I think, you know, there's a really simple set of questions that I ask myself often. Nice and I'll give you those questions. And I do two things with those questions. A, I check in on myself, right? Mm-hmm. A lot. Yeah. B, I write the answers down. I'm a big... Like I love a good notebook. Yeah. I love a g- and I write things down. Yeah. 'Cause for me, the act of physically writing it down helps cement it in my brain, but it also gives me a reference point back. When I start to feel overwhelmed or confused, I have something concrete I can go back and look at. Mm-hmm. So that's step two. Step three is I say things out loud, even to myself. So I'll give you a really good example, and I promise- Sure I'll get to the questions. No, that's good. There are days where I feel like all I'm doing is sitting in the office, and I need a break. Mm-hmm. So what I started doing was saying out loud, like, there's nobody in this office. I say out loud, "I need a break." And what I learned, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a coach, I'm not a, a scientist. Yeah. But what I learned through this process is the act of saying something out loud, even if it's just to yourself, changes your thought pattern. Mm-hmm. And when you change your thought pattern, it's, it becomes easier to change your action. So when I say things, I could think it all day long, right? Like, "Man, I'm tired." Oh, yeah. "I haven't been outside. I haven't, you know, I haven't touched grass today. I haven't walked outside. I need to, I need more water." If I think it, I don't do it. Mm-hmm. Right. I think it, but I don't do it. Yeah. But when I say it out loud, "I need a break," I stand up- Yeah and I leave the office. Yeah. That's so simple. Like it's so simple to me. Yeah. But the questions that I ask myself a lot, and, and again- Yeah I don't do this, like I don't have a calendar invite. I don't do it once a month. But when, when life starts to feel- Yeah a little bit- You know, where I- Much I wanna be at a three, but life is taking me, I feel like I'm at, like, a seven or eight. Mm-hmm. What, like, what, what do I want to release right now? Is there something that's going on in my life right now that I'm holding onto that I just wanna let go? Mm-hmm. What do I wanna reclaim? Is it time, focus, presence, energy, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. What, w- w- you know, d- does it feel risky? What's the risk of me making a change right now? Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and so put that down on paper. And then w- what, what is one small change, one small thing I could do over the next month- to kind of just g- release the thing I wanna release and maybe get- Right a little closer to the thing that I wanna introduce or reclaim or get more of in my life. Mm-hmm. That's it. Mm-hmm. And it could be as simple as, you know, rest. Yeah. I want to- I'm, I'm not sleeping well. I wanna rest. Mm-hmm. it feels risky to rest because that might mean I say no to things and people will view me as less helpful or less interested. Mm-hmm. Okay? That's risky for me. If, if you look at my entire makeup, that's risky for me. But what will it, you know, what is one small thing that I'm gonna, I'm gonna try this, this month? Right, right. Well, I'm gonna take a break two times a day- Yeah for 30 minutes. Okay. And I'm gonna- Love that sit on the couch and I'm gonna read. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna scroll my phone. I'm gonna sit and do nothing. I'm gonna sit outside, whatever it is. Right. Yeah. Like, that's an example of how simple it is. I'm not overhauling my whole life. Right. I'm not disenfranchising everybody around me. Mm-hmm. Right? I'm- Right, exactly. Everybody's gonna be fine. Everything's- Yeah gonna be fine. Yeah. But it's just, it's a way that I can just check in with myself, and I like- Mm-hmm a good structure and a framework. Mm-hmm. It can't be, you know, 170 pages of, of things. Like- Yeah that, that just doesn't- Don't have time for that, yeah, that Don't have time for that. But, you know, a few key questions and- Yeah you know, and then just getting honest. Like, yeah, there's a risk- Yeah of, of me doing this, but what is- Mm-hmm the risk? Because- Right the risk that I perceive is, like, not even rooted in reality. Right? You know what I mean? oh, 100%, and I'm glad you brought that up because I find that happens all the time. What we think is a risk, and when we actually, what is the risk and we actually ask those questions, what is the real risk, we go, "Well, wait a minute." Wait a second. "That's..." "That's not really making sense." No. But that's what we carry, and that's what- It, it- we run off of, right? Yeah. It is. Is, is false information that we've carried over time and, and made it who we are, so that's what we're- Yeah talking about is, is talking about the- It's just un- Yeah, exactly unpacking it, right? And putting- Yeah it out, unpacking it, you know- Yeah sizing it. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, I know for me I'm very guilty of this, I outsize, I oversize things. Yeah. and it's not until I get them out, it's not until I say the thing out loud- Mm-hmm it's not until I write it down or really- Mm-hmm assess it that I go- Mm-hmm "Wait a second, I really over-indexed on this thing." Yeah. I really kind of disproportionately sized it. Yep. Or imagine an impact that was actually a lot, lot worse or a, a lot, less even remotely possible- Mm, mm-hmm and it, than I conjured it up in my brain. So- Right there's just these small things that feel- like at this stage in life, we have the time and the space- Yeah to just- Yeah and, and I, and the exercise I'm talking about, like five minutes. Yeah, it's, yeah. This is not Yeah. And it shouldn't be longer. No. You know? It shouldn't be longer. No. So these small things I have found personally that they've helped me just get a little bit more in tune with what, what is happening in my head, in my heart, in my, in my body. Mm-hmm. You know, and paying attention to the physical signs, the spiritual signs- Yes emo- emotional, mental signs, because they're all there. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. You just clear the way for them, right? You just clear the way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and also, like, give yourself permission to go, "Yeah, I deserve five minutes." Yeah. "I deserve a 30-minute break every day." Mm-hmm. "I deserve to do one quote, unquote, 'selfish thing' just for myself every week." Yeah. I was talking to another woman that I met through my Substack- Sure Real Girls Guide to Midlife, and she was, we, I, I wrote something about this idea of being selfish and, you know, what is one selfish thing that you've done for yourself this week? and i- and she shared, y- you know, and it was, like, so minimal. Mm-hmm. And, and yet- Yeah for her it felt so indulgent. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like we get to be... You can be selfish. Mm-hmm. There's nothing wrong with that. And the nice part, when we start moving the needle back to ourselves, we know all those, what I call in our sphere of influence- Hmm are impacted, whether they're observing, whether they're feeling- Yeah our energy, right? Yeah. We know how energy transfers- Oh, yeah in and out. If, a- and I share this with the women that I work with, if it's really a hard thing where you can't take time for yourself 'cause it's just a battle and it just becomes this huge issue, if it helps, think about the benefits that will happen- Hmm as a result of you doing this- Yeah without having to lift a finger any other way than doing something. Yeah. And like you say, five minutes. Five minutes. Sit for 30 seconds and have a cup of tea, and see if that works for you. Absolutely. Start small. Start small. It's... Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's sort of the, the premise of the, the way I write- Mm-hmm how I, you know, what I, what I've chosen to write about. And again, I'm, I'm not a writer. Like, this is not- Yeah my bag. I'd spent- Yeah lots of time in marketing, so when I picked this up- Right this was brand new. Yeah. It was hugely, It felt very, full of risks. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I tried to talk myself out of it for a couple months. Yeah. Well, I gave myself a couple months to try to talk myself out of it, and it turns out I didn't, obviously. Right. Right. Didn't talk myself out of it. Yeah. Talked myself into it. and it, it is the power of the pause, right? Mm-hmm. And it just... E- even, even just- Yeah for me, I'm a, I'm a, I like to be responsive. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like to be available. Yeah. Yeah. and I've learned, and I have to practice this, I don't have to respond right away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can pause. Yeah. Yeah. And the, the world's not gonna open me up- Right and swallow me whole. Yeah. But even those little things, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, if something comes across, it's like- Okay, I'm gonna sit with that Yeah, yeah And, and then I'll reply and, you know, it might not be a yes, it might not be a no. You know, I'm, I'm really practicing no as a full sentence. Mm-hmm. It doesn't need to be followed by a dissertation about why- Right, right I'm saying no. Mm-hmm, yeah. I'm not available. Yeah. That's three words. Yep, yeah. Sometimes that- Yeah feels a little bit less jarring than no. Right, yeah. but I'm not available. Yeah, yeah. Or, or, you know, if I have something to say, I have an opinion. Mm-hmm. I have an opinion. I had to count. Yeah. Four words. Four. I have an opinion. That's okay, yeah. Yeah. Love it. Right? Yeah, yeah. These are small things. Mm-hmm. Small things that make a huge difference. Yep. Right? And so what we're sharing today is you can take these steps.

Denise 30:59

Mm. You can find The Real Girls' Guide, right, To Midlife. There are incredible stories in there, and I love how you did such a cross-section of women. Mm. And I must say as somebody's who's hosting this show, those women were available to be so open because of your ability to show them that you are present and in the room with them. Mm-hmm. You gave them a safety- Mm-hmm for them to be able to share their story. Mm-hmm. So thank you for bringing yourself to the table in the way you did. I love folders. As a former educator- I still have a ton of them in my drawers. Me too. I love them too. I love notebooks. I love folders. I love pens. I love, you know. Yeah. But I do love folders. I'm so glad you remember the folders. Mine was red. The book folder was red. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have a folder. It was interesting. One of our episodes that's dropping this week, was talking about, or it was last week actually, about attagirl, right? Mm. All the positive comments you've received- Oh, yeah over the years. There's a folder for that. Praise files. Right? Praise files. Yes. I love them. Yes. Right? I love them. Yeah, 'cause we forget when we're in the... So I'm going to send you this introduction, and you're gonna put it in the grace file. So- I will. I will. I'll do it Thank you so much. What happens when you've built the life that you've worked super hard for, and it's a really great life, but you start realizing that you do want something different from the life- Mm you've built, right? Mm. You've talked a lot about the busyness- Mm-hmm and that's the phase, and that's what happens. But when we end, when we get to the next phase, how do we d- do all that without... And h- or do we have to live with some guilt if we're feeling like- Yeah we want something? Yeah. It, you know, you know, it's a really good question.

Angela 33:02

I think, you know, I talk about this as in one example, just with my marriage, right? Mm-hmm. So I s- was in a marriage, and I told myself that my kids deserved an intact family more than they... But it, it came at a cost, and that cost was a happy mom- Yeah and truly a happy dad. Yeah. And I felt for a, a long time that the risk of, creating instability for my kids meant I wasn't a good mother. Yeah. And my desiring something more or something different- Mm-hmm or my contemplating my happiness over my kids' stability somehow made me a bad person. Mm. And it meant I was weak, and it meant I was selfish. Mm-hmm. And in reality, those things were not true. And- Yeah you know, my kids have... The, the divorce is, you know, 15 year, whatever, however many years. That, that sometimes you lose track of these things. 12, 13, 14 years, in the d- Sure in the rear view. Yeah but, you know, my boys, in particular my older ones, now will sit me down and go, "Man, it's nice to see you like this." Like, they didn't know me. They didn't know- Yeah this version of me. Yeah. I didn't know this version of me. Mm-hmm. And I, so I think what I'm doing as a result of some of these things is, you know, the guilt is still there. It's always there, but I'm seeing the payoff. Right. I'm seeing that- Yeah come in the form of my happiness and my contentment. Mm. Mm-hmm. I'm seeing it come in the payoff in my, my willingness to explore and take, you know, some big risks, some small risks. I'm- Mm-hmm seeing it come in the payoff of me making a decision to try something and then doing it. Like, I started drum lessons six months ago. Like, Yeah, you did because I wanted to. Why not? Yeah. And, and I think- Mm-hmm the other payoff for me as a mother is the fact that my boys- Mm-hmm are recognizing- Yeah

Denise 34:45

a version of me that- I want them to know. I want to know her. Of course. Yeah. I want to know her, 'cause she's kind of badass. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I love that. What you're, what we were talking about before. Right. When we start pouring into our own cup through actually giving ourselves that love that you give to everybody else, everybody else in your sphere of influence actually wins.

Angela 35:12

They do. Right? They do. Mm-hmm. And I even think, you know, with the guilt or the, the negative- Mm-hmm emotions, the sadness that come with it, I find that- Sure you know, and, and, and look, gr- grief can come in a lot of forms, right? Yeah. It could come when you lose people that you love- Mm. Mm-hmm for sure. It can come when the life you thought you were gonna live looks different. It can- Mm-hmm it could come in the form of, you know, stories that you told yourself about yourself or your future don't come to fruition. Mm-hmm. And sometimes to get through it is to live through it. And- Yeah acknowledging the grief and going, "Yeah, I feel sad. I feel-" Yeah scared. I feel angry. I feel frustrated." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's the first step, you know? Mm-hmm. Acknowledging the feeling and not trying to, you know- Yeah d- make yourself feel worse for even feeling the feeling, which I think I'm very good at. I'm very- Yeah still, I'm very good at. Yeah but I think, you know, l- the, the ability to move through the grief or the guilt or the fear- Yeah and uncertainty is first acknowledge the feeling. Mm-hmm. and then look at your situation and go, "Okay, I accept where I'm sitting today." Mm-hmm. And, you know, what are the small things I- I'm going to do to sort of mitigate how I'm feeling- Right now? Right. And, and some of that is to get to, you know, you kind of have to get to acknowledgement and acceptance and, and then recognizing that different- 'Cause, you know, change can bring about a lot of discomfort.

Denise 36:30

Mm-hmm. And change and discomfort feel, and, and different feel overwhelming. Right. And somehow in our brains we sort of conflate them with bad. Mm-hmm. And sometimes different is just different. Right. Yeah. Yeah. How are we labeling it? How are we labeling- How are we experiencing it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And different doesn't have to be bad. Change doesn't... Change can just be different. Right. Different can just be different. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I love that and, yeah. And so- Mm-hmm I think that the, you know, kind of decoupling some of that conflating of change and different- Mm-hmm being bad and negative and hard and, you know- Right and full of suffering- Right and strife for all the for yourself and the people. Like it... I think we're- our brains are really good at conjuring up these stories. Absolutely. It's, it's the, you know, it's the old brain. It's, it's- Mm what we're wired to do. Yeah. Survive, right? From- Yeah caveman days- Yeah, absolutely or whatever. Yeah. It's nothing wrong with us. It's how we are put together. And- No, totally at the, at the end of the day, we get to drive our own bus, right? Yes, we do. We get to decide who's coming on the ride and who's had their time, and it's, it's time for you to go off now. Yeah, yeah. And we're moving new things through, right? That's right. We are. We're going to a different destination, and we get to choose. And midlife is a time where we talked about that space is coming- Yeah and it's more available. Yeah. How are you going to choose to take that time and space for yourself- That's right so that you give back to yourself? That's right. Angela, as we depart in a few moments, what is one more thing you would love for our audience to really capture in terms of- Hmm

Angela 38:11

what is all this- Hmm about? What do you want them to take home and carry? I think a, a couple things. I think one thing is that, you know, you're not crazy. Mm-hmm. You're not alone. Mm-hmm. change can be very, very small acts, and you don't have to blow up your whole life in the process. Love it. Love it.

Denise 38:31

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One step at a time. One step at a time. And... Right? One step at a time, and if the step is too big and you're being swallowed, Real Girls have a community, right? Yes. Yes. And we will put all the information in the show notes. Thank you. And Angela, what a treat, what a pleasure to share this time with you today. I know our community is going to be just taking a breath after hearing our conversation and knowing that they are not alone, and that they can do what they need to do in the moment for themselves. Thank you for those incredible questions. Great anchors. I love it. I'm about let's get into where we are right now. Hmm. Hmm. Let's stay present where we can- Hmm. Hmm and not catastrophizing. We all do it. Been there, done that. Still do it, but, you know. Thank you. Life, lifelong learning, that's what I'm about. Yeah. So yeah. Thank you for having me. And, oh, such a pre- Such a pleasure and a privilege, really, really. And as you know, if you're a listener and a part of our community, you know that we have an in-person event coming up. we have moved it. It was originally going to be in November, but we are having it in, the spring. I'm just finalizing the new dates. It'll be in Vancouver at the Hyatt Regency. It's two days where we are coming together and we have four torchbearers, four women who've been in the show in the past- sharing their light because we know when one woman turns her light on, the rest of the room catches fire. It's not a retreat where we're just trying to hide. It's not a conference where we're gonna get filled with more to-dos. Mm-hmm. It's a time to tune back in to who you are as a person and a woman, and very much what Angela's been talking about today with us. So if that resonates with you, if you're feeling that pull from our conversation and our other conversations that we have on Thrive After 45, jump on the wait list. You'll get all the information as things become more available. We would love to have you in that room in Vancouver. It's a beautiful, beautiful venue and a beautiful... I- people say, "Why did you choose Vancouver when you are... Like, you're in Ontario. Why are you going out west?" And I say very clearly, "It's where the mountains meet the ocean." Oh, beautiful. And that's, to me, where everything is grounded- That's magic space, right? That's magic. Yeah, yeah. It just, it has to be for the first one. Yeah. It's only the first one. We'll be doing it yearly, but yeah. Angela, thank you again for your time. We, again, we will have all the information in the show notes, how to find Angela, how to get into Ignite the Inner Uprising. And we would love to have you back sometime in the future, Angela. Would love it. Thank you. Maybe even in the room. Thank you so much. And for listeners, make sure you do something for you, by you, because of you, and thrive after 45.