Feed the Right Wolf with Chad Taylor

Hello, and welcome to Thrive After 45. I'm Denise Drinkwater, heart whisperer, midlife mirror, and mentor. And every week, it is an honor and a privilege to share energy and space with inspiring guests whose stories reflect so many possibilities of thriving beyond 45. Together, we uncover the whispers of the heart, the power of midlife transformation, and the wisdom that fuels expansion, because when one woman turns her light on, the rest of the room catches fire. What happens when someone spends decades running from themselves, only to discover that the wreckage they left behind was actually the road that led them home? He didn't arrive at this work because he was gifted at understanding people. My guest today arrived because he had no choice but to understand himself. Over 25 years in recovery and personal development will do that to you. It strips away the performance. It makes you honest about the one thing most of us spend a lifetime avoiding, our own reflection. Today, as a clinical psychotherapist, my guest sits with thousands of clients, adults, teens, couples, not as someone above the struggle, but as someone who still knows what it costs to do the work. And what he sees over and over and over again is that people are looking everywhere for the source of their pain except inward. It is my absolute honor and privilege to welcome our guest to the show today, Chad Taylor. It is such a privilege to share space with you. It was nice just sitting and listening to the way you introduced me. If I ever, if I ever become somewhat in need of a PR person, you're it. If you've got time. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's my privilege. You know, when we talked not that long ago, I was like, "I need to have you in the room," because these are the types of conversations that can be really, really challenging for people. It's the stuff we hide, right? The things that we don't really wanna talk about, the really hard stuff, and how we got here, and what- What are we gonna do about it? So what I would love to start with is most people choose to become clinical psychotherapists. You didn't. Life chose it for you. I wonder if you could share some of your journey today so we can get a deeper understanding of how you came to where you are today. Yeah, I like the way you said that, that it chose me. I didn't chose it- I didn't choose it, because that definitely is, is the h- has been the journey for me. Mm-hmm. I started off in Australia, obviously born into Australia. Um, somewhat middle-class family, but a bit of addiction and a bit of alcohol, sort of, you know, use by my parents- Yep predominantly father. And then I think I kind of, I was always a bit different. You know, I always had imaginary friends, and I think I was trying to escape or- Mm I don't know, I was just a bit different, and that kind of, um, caused a bit of conflict as well already in my upbringing. Because obviously I wasn't the kid that, you know, I was a pain in the ass really. Like I think now, like I was such a pain in the ass, and not because I was naughty, just because I was different. Mm. And I think what happened to me was I learnt pretty young that if I sort of drank and, more drank than used drugs, but if I drank- Mm-hmm then I felt like I fit in. Mm. You know? So I ended up starting to use alcohol very young, A, to deal with what was going on in the chaotic home- Mm-hmm but I think, B, that I knew it allowed me to fit in. And- Yeah obviously then, like Gabor Maté talks about, who's a lot smarter man than me, all addiction starts with pain and ends with pain, that- Mm I was trying to escape- It wasn't really about, my journey wasn't I started having a few alcoholic drinks and then that progressed. My journey was from the first times I drank- Mm-hmm I got, you know, blackout drunk. Mm. I got... And that was young, and then I chased it. You know- Mm I was looking at my, reflecting yesterday that, uh, my daughter had a birth- 15th birthday on the weekend, and she saved almost five grand with these two little jobs, almost $5,000 with these two little jobs that she's got. And- Wow at her age, my first job was 13 and a half, and I knew if I got two shifts a week, I could get a case of beer and two packets of cigarettes. Like, the difference between me and her, and that's a good thing, but I suppose where I'm going with this journey is I became dependent upon alcohol allowing me to feel normal very, very quickly. Mm-hmm. And then obviously we know where that ends up if we've ever been around somebody who- He's one of those people that shouldn't drink Yeah And then that led me to a detox facility and a rehab pretty young, at 22. And then that is sort of part of this journey where I learnt in places like Alco- Alcoholics Anonymous and those 12-step fellowships that part of the journey is to pass it on. You know, in that, in that model it's, it's not a paid model. Mm-hmm. It's a more like, you know, people have saved your ass, now it's your responsibility to help save theirs. So we'd go out and do talks at detoxes and I was only a kid when I look back now. Right. You know, 22 going out and doing, doing talks at detoxes. Yeah. And I'd have a lot of, um, I'd have a lot of men and a lot of people challenge me- Yeah because of my age. Yep. Yeah. So I kinda knew that it was never gonna be a career until later on. Yeah. You know, it's funny when, you know, your podcast, right, and I'm like, "Oh, I'm, I feel privileged to be on here," but then part of me is like, I still feel like I'm 25, not 47. Right. Yeah. So I guess, yeah. So I guess I kept just volunteering and working with kids. And then, then I was a plumber, so I had, I'd always have an apprentice who was down and out, he'd be living in my back shed or, you know. So I, I sort of, I had my apprenticeship in the real world rather than having the apprenticeship for- Mm becoming a psychotherapist in the books. Yeah. I had it in the real world. Right. You know, people around me dying unfortunately, people in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous dying and suiciding, and just, yeah. So I guess what happened with me was rather than doing the theory and then living the experience, I think it come the other way around where I- Yeah lived the experience. And then knew that, I always knew I wanted to make this a career of some description. Mm. I didn't know if it was social work or psychology or, I didn't really know what, you know, running a rehab or- Mm-hmm yeah. And then some things happened in my life, again, around middle, middle age that I think the- Yeah universe was almost, um, yeah, trying to move me where I was meant to be. Mm-hmm. But I think I was a bit maybe financially too comfortable doing what I was doing. I had a successful plumbing business making a lot of money. Mm-hmm. Having, I had guys working for me, so they were making me money. Yep. And then, yeah, it came through the, um yeah, it doesn't look pretty, but it came through me end up reacting pretty badly to a builder that owed me a lot of money, and then there was criminal charges and- Yep um, you know, and I was full of emotion. And at the time, and that was almost the, the reference point for me to say, "Okay, well, this is probably Brennan's course. Maybe there's a lesson in this." And then that's when I went on and started, you know, after a breakup again, and, you know, then started uni. Yeah. And it was, yeah, I haven't looked back. It's been- Amazing you know, that's, that's my journey in a five-minute spiel. You know, what's coming through as you're sharing your story is that you talk about the reflection piece. There was something in there, and I, I should have written it down. I don't do a lot of writing when we have conversation 'cause I usually keep it in my brain, but there was so much you gave, where you talked about the, the, um, a precipice around the building and the, the s- the problems with the work piece guided you to something different, which is where you are landing now. Were you always, um, or, or was it a journey where you learned, you know what, this is, this is something I need to pay attention to? And would you fall off as you were paying attention, would you fall off and go another way? Like I think that's been my life. I think it's You know, I've always practiced, well, since I got into recovery, practiced a lot of meditation and a lot of reading and studying. Mm-hmm. And, you know, then when I went to uni, I suppose we're fast-forwarding here, but I think I knew. I think I've always been feeling function dominant. You know, Carl Jung talks about thinking function dominant people and feeling function dominant people, and we almost live in a world where if you're feeling function dominant, we will just make you become thinking function dominant. Okay. Like the schooling system and- Okay, I was gonna say- You know, there's no real Yeah cl- clarify what that is so our audience and, and I really understand what you're talking about in terms of function- Well, I guess the way he describes it is we, we experience the world... So when I get overwhelmed- Mm-hmm it's generally a body sensation, and it's generally like I can It's more, things happen more in my body and more in my feeling function- Yep than they do in my thinking. So say for instance if somebody who's thinking function dominant gets angry- Yep it's all up here, right? Where for me it's my body and my feeling function is what's overwhelmed, and the thinking is a bit offline. Yeah. And the feeling function is completely overwhelmed by overstimulated. So I guess there's an equation that I used to, my mentor used to try and teach me, which was I over E. And he used to say we operate better when the intellect is over top of the emotion. But what happens to people like you and him and a few others was that when we get overwhelmed, the E goes over top of the I, and then it's about trying to work out how to flip it back. Right. Right. And do you, through the work that you do, are you able to identify and help people? Are you in I or E, and which, which do you need to flip? Is that the type of stuff that you help them with? 'Cause- Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, um, I don't really The way I work is I don't really try and tell people what to do, is surprise- Yeah like, it, it's funny, I have this conversation many a time where a guy might come, I'll use a guy that might come in and- He's got a partner and he's struggling with her, and all his mates are like, "Everyone's telling me just to..." I'm gonna be blunt here. Yeah. "Everyone's telling me just to fuck her off," you know? Yeah. "To get rid of her. She's no good." Yeah. And he's like, "I need you to tell me what to do." Mm. And I'm, I'm like, "Well, yeah, you've, you've actually come to the wrong person for that one." Yeah. "I'll let your mates and your mum and everyone around you tell you what you should do. Let's just have a conversation so you can understand what you wanna do, not what- Yeah everybody else thinks you wanna do." See, I do... It does come through the, it does come through the therapy with me. Yeah. But it's probably, I guess, um, my, my style is pretty unique because it has come from my journey more so much than the learning. Mm. It's got so much weaved into it that, you know, I even had one lady once say to me about half an hour into the session, she said, "So when's the therapy gonna start?" Because I don't use a notepad, I don't- Of course my kind of style is that if I'm, if I'm sitting here now and you're talking- Mm-hmm and I'm writing down something like this- Well, yeah and look where my head is- Totally and I'm spending 20 seconds writing something down, I'm not hearing what you're saying for the next 20 seconds. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I guess it is, it is definitely something we identify, you know, whether people are thinking function dominant, and, and it depends on the, the person that comes in as well. Some of them aren't really interested in any of that. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yep. So you l- literally meet your clients where they are and help guide them to seeing themselves. 100%. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and when you look at my caseload, and like yesterday I think I had a eight-year-old kid in this morning. In, it, first thing, first up I had an eight-year-old kid, and then I had a couple who were in their 70s. Yeah. And then my next client was an 11-year-old kid, and then I seen a 22-year-old girl. Mm-hmm. And then I had about a middle, a 40, 40, about my age man, so like right there, if I, if I've just got a, a method that, come see me for five sessions and we'll do this program that I've devised- Yep and then you'll run off into the sunset and never look back. Right. Like, I don't know how you work, but I think that's bullshit, right? Yeah. 'Cause right there, unless I'm gonna have one, one particular client, then that might work, but even then, how can I, how can I know? Yeah. Like, I had a lady come in, a 78-year-old, and I'm sure she's not listening to this. She might be, but she booked in and I had no idea. I didn't really look up her age, and she come in- Yeah and within the first probably f- I thought, I was thinking, "Wow, I wonder what's..." And within the first kind of, you know, 10 minutes- Mm it was all about, you know, she was having an affair with her- Mm-hmm with her partner. Mm-hmm. Her friend from bridge club's husband And she was angry that her husband was retiring and that was gonna affect- Yeah uh, you know, so if I've just got a- Yeah and that's wh- where, why I wanted to tell that was we've also gotta throw our own values and morals within reason- Yeah out the window and not say- Yeah "Oh, wow, I would never cheat. I would... Oh, that's- Yeah. Yeah so immoral." And this is where I think a lot of people, we become so judgemental of, you know- Yeah to me, it's like all behavior is communication. Like- Absolutely any behavior that we have- Yes is communication. Yes. Absolutely. I, uh, I, uh, for those who are watching on Tu- YouTube, you would've seen my, uh, hands go up in the air. Yes, I totally agree. Behavior is communication. As a former behavior resource teacher, I get it. Observation and conversation and listening between the lines that they're actually saying, and opening up those doors of communication and listening to actually understand and not to respond was a huge life-changing moment for me as much as it was for the students that I worked with K to 12, right? Um, so I love that you're in the room. That's, that's a huge testament. The age range, because like you say, I can't create a program that allows all the... It doesn't meet each individual's needs, so I love what you do. I love it. And even that, like how can we, how can we know? Like- Can- I don't know what the other... When, when that person, if you came to me- Mm-hmm and I'm, you know, like, let's be honest, we, whether we like it or not, we have an internal judgment system- Mm-hmm and it's due to safety more than anything. Yeah. It's like, "Wow, this, this person looks like this." Like our, our, our nervous system and our- Mm-hmm the, the best way I heard it described was in The Body Keeps the Score book, where he talks about bottom-up processing rather than top-down processing. And when, when we're in an unsafe environment, the feeling- Mm function or the body, that bottom-up processing does take over, and the way he described it in the book was that, you know, if there's a guy coming towards me with a knife- Yeah and he look... with an angry expression on his face, but he's wearing the same T-shirt that I've got, and I love that T-shirt. If it's top-up processing, it's almost like, "Hey, mate. Oh, wow. I love that T-shirt. I've got one the same." Where this inbuilt bottom, bottom-up processing rather than top-down- Right it's saying, it's noticing the facial expression. It's noti- Mm. And that's mirror neurons. I'm sure you know a lot more about that than me being a behavior specialist previously, but, you know, it notices, the first thing I think it notices is the facial expression, and then what then is- Yeah then it's like- Yeah "Let's get out of this situation." Where the, the brain would be like, "Oh, wow, look at that T-shirt. I've got that one. I wonder if he got it on sale like me. Where did he buy it?" Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a whole safety mechanism that's, that's built in, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And we want those safety mechanisms. However, where it becomes complex is that that becomes our, our go-to for everything. And, you know, something we, y- you've shared earlier, um, and in the intro was about the variety of people and our, our capacity to understand, I think is really important, what's real and what isn't, and what we are gonna start taking responsibility for, and that, that looking at our own reflection, right? Mm-hmm. Is that one of the hardest parts that you would say is, is the biggest challenge, if there is a biggest challenge for us as a humanity, is looking at ourselves in the deeper reflective, open reflection instead of making, you know, bl- the blame game? Yeah, I think it's the hardest thing we'll ever do. Yeah. And it's not a, it's not a, "Okay, I'm here now," and it... 'Cause it, in my book I talk about when we're born that we're connected. The head and the heart or the thinking and the feeling are connected- Yeah as we get born into the world. And I think a lot of... I'm trying to speed this up so I don't bore yous for the next half an hour. But a lot of religious and spiritual teachings talk about- Yep the same journey. You know, the, in Buddhism it's about the Buddha is almost born, and his, his father creates this perfect Truman Show almost world. And then in- Mm-hmm Christians they talk about, you know, they've been in the Garden of Eden. Mm-hmm. You know? So when we're born, like if w- if we've ever had children or been around children, which is all of us- Mm-hmm that child up until three, five, it doesn't really matter, it's in the moment. It, the child doesn't know about sickness or death or suffering or fear. E- even fear, you know, early on, fear doesn't come until probably three. Early on there's almost just this- Mm-hmm you know, look, there's a look to the caregivers. Yeah. So- Yeah what I'm, what I'm saying here is inside the body we have these protective mechanisms in, in the body which are things like, um, you know, if we cut our arm, our body knows to coagulate the blood and form a scab. Right. If we get sick, you probably- Right hear my voice a bit raspy. I'm just getting over a sickness. Yep. If we get sick, our body knows to put us into a fever and sweat it out. If we eat food that's a bit off, our body will get it out through diarrhea- Yeah as quickly as it can. Well, what we don't ever talk about, inside the psyche or the ego- Yeah not the egocentricity, but the actual, the ego, the healthy sense of a person, there's a thing, there's an in-built mechanism called the egocentricity, and what it does is it's designed to keep us safe from emotional problems. Mm-hmm. So what happens pretty early on is as these two things are connected, the ego, as we, as we go through things generally as a child to start with- It almost starts to form a little barrier or a wall to keep us safe. And how that looks is if I've been working all day and I'm exhausted and I walk in the door and my daughter's drew a amazing picture for me, and is all she wants from me is for me to grab that picture and, and, and acknowledge it and tell her- Mm-hmm how good it is or how good she is really, or show her that what she's given me, I'm- Right recognizing that, and there's a connection there. Mm-hmm. But most of us walk in the door- Mm and I've got to be careful. I'm not like that even as a therapist. "Oh, darling, I'll have a look in a minute. Dad's just gotta- Yeah do X, Y, Z." So each time we go through this- Yep could be that the teacher kicks us out of the classroom, which happened to me a lot. Could be we weren't picked for the sporting team, could be we like a boy or a girl that doesn't like us at school. So by the time we're early teens, we're pretty much got the, the true self is inside, and then we've got an egocentric barrier on the outside that we experience the world from. So the work- Right that I'm trying to do, this isn't devised by me. The work that I'm... There's so many songs out there, you know, like the crack is where the light gets in. There's songs, there's poems. What I'm trying to hopefully do is that hopefully when that crack happens- Yeah if people seek out therapy- Yeah then we can maybe try and open that a bit more and get in, get into that real section. Because otherwise, we're just- Right and I get a lot of clients where I can't get, I can't get through the egocentricity at all. They might come in and, you know, they just want a space to whinge for an hour about their partner- Yeah, yeah or their children or their boss. Mm-hmm. And I might let them do it once or twice, but it's fucking draining. It is- Right? Exactly. Exactly. Because you, what you see is y- the cycle and we're not getting out, and you can't make anybody... I learned this eons ago, you can't make anybody do anything. It doesn't matter who you are. You think you can, you can't. You can only do that for yourself, right? So yeah, draining is an understatement. Yeah. And a lot of people don't... Yeah, 100%. A lot of people don't want to... It's too, like, it's almost like sometimes the, the American In- I love the example of the American Indians where they talk about the white wolf and the black wolf, and we're all born with a white wolf and a black wolf inside of us, and the white wolf is almost the ego inside of there, and the black wolf being that egocentricity. And they talk about white wolf living on love and tolerance and compassion and understanding, and the black wolf living on hate and revenge and, um, projection and all these sorts of things. And then there's a story that they, one day a grandfather is telling his grandchildren this story, and he says- Mm-hmm "You know, when we're born, we've got these two wolves inside of us and they're in a fight to the death." And one of the little grandchildren puts his hand up and says, "Which one wins, Grandpa?" And he says, "The one you feed." So in other words, the problem is sometimes I think we live in a world where the black wolf gets fed- Yeah so much- Yeah that I'm not, like my style of therapy- Mm-hmm isn't for everyone because it, it can be- Sure confronting, but that's what worked for me. I'd been to so many therapists and, um- Yeah even like admissions to psychiatric institutions- Yeah and no one could really penetrate me. Mm. Even though my life was going okay, I'd had these things that had happened- Mm-hmm until I met, and I talk about it in my book, until I met this one man, Ted, who had a completely different style of therapy where it was almost like a sledgehammer or if he couldn't get through- Yeah he'd almost warn you about what he was gonna do. He'd give you the theory of it. Mm-hmm. And then he'd, you know- Yeah and, and I've done that with clients. I talk about that in one of my case studies. One of my probably, um... and I'm mindful of what language I use here, but just go with me, people, 'cause it's for description. Sure. That I had a man turn up, he was in his 60s. He was rich. Yeah. Turned up to therapy. His wife had had an affair. She was a lot younger. Yeah. And he was trying to, I don't even know what he wanted. I think he just wanted a space to whinge about her. Mm. And he kept coming- Yeah and I was sort of saying, "Look, let's, let's start to look at your part in it." And it was like, "What? My fucking part? I don't have a part, mate." Yeah. Like, that's the- Yeah egocentricity right there. Right. Right. His main goal was to, to be able to not hate her so much because he didn't wanna lose money again. He'd had like four relationships fail. Right. Yeah. And he didn't wanna pay her out, and so his goal- Yeah was more financial. Mm-hmm. But anyway, I, I was trying all these little, um, I like to use it, like flick a bit of water on him to wake him up. Yeah, yeah. I was saying to him, "You know what happens with clients- Yeah is if I can't get through, I just end up throwing a bucket of water on them and they don't like it, and they either walk out- Right or they cop it." And, and this went on, and then one day I thought, "I gotta, I've gotta try and get him this way." Get the bucket. Get the bucket. So, and he had been referring to her a lot throughout, and I'm mindful you said you've got a lot of women listen to this, and I don't- Yes talk about women like this, but he was, he was referring- Right to her as a, you know, "Oh, the slut did this- Yeah and she did this"- Mm and it was using that word all the time, right? Mm. I, I couldn't even remember her name because he was so full of hurt. Mm-hmm. Doesn't make it okay, and he comes in. Right. And I lean in towards him one morning first thing, and I said- Yeah "So how's the slut been this week?" And I'd, and I'd never met this woman, and that- Yeah was my bucket of water. Like, it doesn't look like a... Right. And he was like almost taken aback- Right that I'd use that language about her. And, and it, and I seen him, he sorta, he laughed, and then he got angry, and then- Yeah he was shocked. It really was that... So you probably won't read this- Well in a textbook- Mm but it worked, and I got through that armor, and that was all that was gonna get through. And then he was like, "W- what did you just say?" Mm-hmm. And I said, "Look, that was orchestrated. I don't-" Yeah. "I don't, I don't think that way of your wife. I don't know your wife." He'd just used that language so much with her bef- about her before- Yeah that I can't help but remain. Yeah. So it doesn't always look, uh, this work doesn't look, um, textbook a lot of the time. But now she started coming. They've been coming for couples therapy. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he doesn't mind me using this case study, 'cause he's so shocked now that his egocentricity- Right was so strong that that, he didn't... Like, we don't even know that- No that that's the way we're portraying. Exactly. Y- y- you're not even aware of the depth of which you are being guarded, or guard- guarding yourself, because it's just who you are. When in reality it isn't who you are. And so when you tap through, or blow through, or put- Yeah a bucket on that, then what a beautiful thing that everything is progressing in a much healthier way for the two of them. So- Mm-hmm yeah. And, you know, I'm curious to know, 'cause I'm, I know there are people who are listening, women and men listen to the show, which I love, and our audience is primarily for women, but I know our audience is sitting there going, "How do I know when I have blinders on? How do I really grasp if I don't have Chad with a bucket of water going, 'Hey'"? How do I, how do I start breaking through that? I mean, there's a desire for sure for people to, to figure some things out, to get to the bottom so they can live a life that they dream of, whatever that may be, to get rid of the demons, as it were. H- what's the way they can find their bucket of water, besides reading your book, which we will talk about next too. Yeah. I, there, there's many, there's many ways of this has been taught. But I think, like you just described there, it's almost like we get, um, we get possessed- Yeah by the egocentricity, by the black wolf. And I think the only way we can... Good question, right? Because the only way I think that we can start to work on it is do the work behind the... So the American Indian parable is instead of trying to go for the black wolf, we feed- Mm the white wolf. Yes. So maybe some meditation is, and most people will say, "I can't meditate. I've tried. I can't do it. My brain's too busy." And I'm like, "Well, that's actually t- the reason why we're meditating." Right? It's not like I sit down and my brain's like, "Oh, yes." There it is. Yep. It's like I sit down and I go, "Oh, shit. What time this morning- Yeah was I meant to be with Denise? I hope the clock-" Yeah. 'cause we've gone through clock change. And I'm like, "Hang on a minute. Come back to the moment." Yeah. Why did you remember to pay that bill yesterday? Like, that's our brains, right? Yeah. Yeah. Our brains are designed to solve problems, and if we don't have a problem, it will create one. That's a scientific fact Mm. Our mind- Mm-hmm is designed to solve a problem, and if we don't have a problem it will make one so it's got a job. So going back to what you asked, if patterns are repeating in your life- Mm-hmm generally the common denominator is you, whether you wanna admit it or not. And that's what I, I write on the back of my book here. I'm just gonna read it because- Yeah this book isn't here to make you feel good. It's about realizing it's not your partner, your past, or the world, it's you. If you're done blaming, bullshitting, and you're ready to take responsibility, read it. If not, don't. Like, it's a pretty simple... So I'm not trying to bring that in now, but what I'm trying to say is that- Yeah it's, if you, if you come to me, or if you, if you find yourself going to your, um, friend, friendship group, or a friend you have coffee with and you're constantly complaining about your partner- Yep like, I get that he could be a pain in the ass- Yeah but there's a part of you that even comes back to what I learned early on in the serenity prayer. This is what I mean, this works everywhere, from AA- Yeah which was, like, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Yeah. Courage to change the things I can. Can. And the wisdom to know the difference. In other words, it's like, okay, we can come in here and we can whinge about what your, what your husband's done for the last however long. Mm-hmm. Or we can start to see where was he coming from? What was he trying to communicate? L- like, what are you doing? And this is why I love, and I'm just gonna talk about this for one minute. The- Yeah, of course the, the AA program, or the 12 step program, when we do a personal inventory at step four, it's done in, like, almost a five column process. And you, you write down the person. Say, say for instance- Mm-hmm I've had a resentment at you. Say, I don't know- Yep say I've got it here and you are half an hour late, even though I- Yep was the late one, so I apologize. That's okay. If you get on here and, if I got on here and you were half an hour late- Yep and I'd got out of bed and I'm thinking, "Fuck, I could've had another half an hour's sleep." Yeah. "She's so disrespectful." Even though it wasn't- Yep your fault, that's sometimes how we start to see the world. We make it about the other person. Yeah. So I'd write down your name, and then I'd write- Yeah what's happened, she turned up late. Yep. And then I, the, the third column is about- Yeah what does it affect? Does it affect my social instinct? Yeah. Does it affect my security instinct? Does it affect my sexual instinct, or- Mm-hmm a combination? Mm-hmm. Well, it probably affects these two. Yeah. I, I could've been doing something better with my time if I was wai- and same with you, waiting for me. And, and then the secondary thing is the social instinct is like that person doesn't value me enough. Right. Yep. Then I move into the real important one, where have I done this before? Mm. Mm-hmm. That's the most important one people miss. Where have I done this before? Yeah. Because it's easy for us to condemn somebody else for something when I guarantee we've all done- Mm the same sort of thing. Yep. And then the last column being, what can I do differently next time? Right. I could send an email the day before. I could, um, I could get on early. I could- Yeah check in with that person. I could get their WhatsApp number when we, so that this didn't happen. Like, there's a multitude of things- Sure other than blaming the other person- Right that I could do. But it's easier to blame the other person, because we're always- Mm-hmm we- that's the way we're brought up in the world. It's Trump, it's Iran, it's- Yeah and I don't really have an opinion on any of these people, right? Right, right. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And, and that's the other thing I do in therapy, and I learned that from my other therapist, where when I'm having a bit of a rant about something- Yeah that's got nothing to do... It has got something to do with me, but say if I'm having a rant about Donald Trump- Right and he'll just lean in and he'll go, "So you were there in the White House, were you?" Yeah. And it's almost like it's a bucket of water again. It's like- Yeah, yeah and part of us, we don't wanna hear that. We wanna keep going on our rant, because it makes us feel important. Right. It builds our energy, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Totally builds our energy, and if you're caught in that kind of a loop, you don't see because you... It's easier to deflect than it is to reflect, right? And contemplate what's, what's my role. One of the things that I love to talk about is coming at what you're describing through a lens of curiosity instead of a lens of blame, and the outward finger pointing to everybody else, and it's, "I'm totally fine. Like, look at me." You know? So I love to say, "What can we do with what's going on to help us see why?" Isn't that interesting? Why do I get angry when that's said? Or why does my heart start racing quickly when, you know, that person walks past me in a certain direct- whatever it is, right? So I like to start to come at it, because from, from my perspective, just my perspective, but I do find that when we come through a lens of curiosity, it allows us to open ourselves up in a new way where there's not an expectation. It's just curious. There's no right or wrong, right? It opens that door, I feel, um, pretty strongly about that, 'cause I know, um, when I work with my clients or we have, you know, sessions or group work or whatever it is that we might be doing, or conversation, having that lens of curiosity really helps. You can even see shoulders go, "Oh, okay, that's not so bad," right? Then you can have an easier time, I think. Just words can be so powerful, can't they? Yeah, I love that. Curiosity and compassion- Which virtually comes into the curiosity that why is this person feeling the way they're feeling? Like, i- is it about me or is it about them? Right. And if it's about them, what can I do? Mm-hmm. 'Cause this is... I- it's a bit like, say, two men, I'll use men because- Yeah they can act a lot worse than women a lot of the time, especially with physical violence, that they're almost fighting over a car park. Right. And, you know, o- one believes that they had their indicator on before the other person, and then the other person believes that they didn't see them and they disrespected them, and then the next minute they're out of their cars and they're having a punch-up. Yeah. But prior to that, it's almost like, "Why are you so angry?" "I'm not angry, you're angry." Yeah. And if we paused them both there in that moment- Right and sort of, like, put 'em on a lie detector test- Yeah is that other guy angry and you're not? Yes. Yeah. And vice versa. And this is, this is that... Now, let's get curious. Why, why is it such a big issue if- Mm. You know, and I had it happen to me the other week where I was late for work- Mm-hmm and an old person, who I reckon didn't even see me, like really old, came in, and I was clearly waiting for it, and just came in and just went into the car. And our park's pretty small where I work, and I was already running late. And I was like, obviously I didn't beep the horn or, like, carry on, but internally I was losing my shit, right? Yeah. Yep. And I was like, "You're making this the..." What happened was I, I, I internalized that he had done that intentionally- Yeah. to fuck me over. Yep. Yep. When I honestly think, looking at him when he got out of the car with his walking stick and, you know, his eyes half closed up- Yeah 'cause he was really easily in his 80s or 90s. It had nothing to do with me, and everything to do with him, and this is what we, what we forget in the world. And, and the last thing I say is we're all children. We're all big kids, right? And we've all seen sculptures and paintings of almost, you know, the two adults fighting each other here- Mm and then the two kids almost crying in their- Mm-hmm you know, in the sculpture- Yeah or the painting here. Mm-hmm. Each time somebody gets upset or generally has a reaction, it's a part of them, the little child in them. Yeah. It's, that's what's showing. Yeah. So if I react to that, it's almost like their inner child has reacted, my inner child, and it's here we are, just two little children fighting each other. Yeah. And the adults are just taken hostage, or vice versa, the two adults are fighting each other and the children are just taken hostage. Yeah, yeah. The compassion, curiosity and compassion, right, is- Totally changes the game. Yeah. Yeah. Because, um, I... And I've heard it and I've witnessed it, and I am doing a better job myself, but, hey- Human, have moments, not gonna lie. But when those moments of frustration or angst or whatever might be coming up, I am now capable of taking that pause, taking that breath, and going, "Hold up. Is this really what this is about? What was it that triggered you to get into that body? Yuck, I don't like this. That's fired me up right now." And the other person doesn't even realize or know because I've gotten so much better. I don't react anymore. I, I step back. I sometimes actually leave. I have to go around the corner and take a breath because that's best for everybody. 'Cause what I'm gonna say has nothing to do with what has happened because they're oblivious. They're just being them. It was something that triggered in me, right? So taking that pause, getting curious, and I love the word compassion. Being okay with, "That's okay, that's what happened," but it's, uh, my responsibility to step in and go, "What's going on here? Is this the time to, to do something about it, or is it time to take a break and come back to it another time?" Whatever that might be. Um- Mm just to- I love that just, you know? I love that. Because whenever we're disturbed, the problem is us, with us, whether we wanna admit it or not. Whenever I'm disturbed- Yeah. Totally whenever that, 'cause it's an energy, right? Being disturbed is an energetic experience. It's happening inside of me. Mm-hmm. Doesn't happen in- So whenever I'm disturbed- Yeah I'm responsible for that disturbance- Yeah whether I like it or not. Yeah. And again, this is what I loved about the 12-step program is, because even if me and you have a disagreement- Mm and I'm only, and I believe I'm only 10% in the wrong, the process of the way this works is when I do my inventory- Mm and I make an amend to you, because that's part of it. You know, they say- Yeah in, in addiction recovery, resentment is the number one offender for a relapse. Like, having a resentment- Mm is the number one reason pe- people pick up a drink. Mm. So for me, I've almost, the reason I've come into this is I've had to to save my life. Yeah. So now if I have a disagreement with my partner- Yeah which of course I do, we're all, like you said, we're human. Yeah. And those disagreements aren't yelling. They could be- Yeah. Yeah, they're pretty small a lot of the time, but I've got to look at my part in it. Yeah, yeah. And if, i- this is how it goes in my opinion. We have a disagreement. She thinks he's 90% in the wrong, and at most I'm probably 10%. I think the same thing. Yeah. She's 90% wrong. If I go back to her with the 10% wrong that I was- Mm-hmm rather than focus on her 90%, it's amazing- Yeah how quickly things reconcile. Yeah. Absolutely. Not only in that relationship or that interaction, but also in oneself. And in order to do the relationship piece, you have to have that awareness within oneself, right? Yeah. And Anthony DeMello's book called Awareness, and there's so many books called Awareness out there, and I'm, I'm sure, I don't know if you have or not come across the work of Richard Rohr, but he's got some amazing books. Uh, especially the one I love the most, which is probably be a good read or a good listen, is called Falling Upward, and it's about the two halves of life, and he talks exactly about this stuff. Mm-hmm. That we have these two halves of life, and they're not generally a chronological age, two halves of life. Mm-hmm. But they're this almost like in the first half of life we're like this. Mm-hmm, going up. Then in the second half of life it's almost like this. So in the first half of life it's all about gaining and getting and making something- Yeah of ourselves in the world. And like, you know, getting to the top of the food chain type thing, 'cause we think that's- Mm-hmm gonna bring us happiness. Right. And then through some events or things that happened- Mm-hmm and I, the reason I'm bringing this is, is more about like why do I n- why the drive to need to be right? Why? Right. And this is this thing with clients. Like, what is so bad if we're wrong? Like, what is- Yeah so bad if we're wrong? And I think it comes back to the black wolf. When the black wolf's in charge- Yeah it can't be wrong. It doesn't live- Yeah on being wrong. Yeah. Or, you know, what if, what if, and most of us, and I'm sure we've had all these instances where we're mid-fight or we've ha- been, you know, arguing about some big topic or small topic, it doesn't really matter. Yeah. And we catch ourselves, we catch ourselves thinking, "Fuck, actually, am I right here?" Questioning, yeah. And then what happens is the black wolf just comes in and goes, "Of course I'm right. Of course I'm right." And then he takes control again. So we are literally taken hostage by the egocentricity. Mm-hmm. Like, there's a part of Chad that's in there, but when- Yeah I'm triggered- Yeah I'm taken hostage by the black wolf, I'm taken hostage by the egocentricity. Right. So the job really is to start to learn through meditation, through reading, studying yourself, seeing therapists. Doesn't really matter- Mm what it is. Going to men's groups or women's groups. Yeah. You know, I'm a big proponent on that as well, like men- Mm for men and w- women in a lot of spaces because- Yeah no one ever taught me what it was to be a safe, strong, masculine- Yeah uh, respectful man. Yeah. I didn't get that. No- nowhere got that modeled to me. I either got, you know, crazy, uh, toxic masculinity and abuse, or I got, unfortunately, an uncle who was, you know, so in his feminine and so unmasculine that his wife was almost his mother. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think there's somewhere in the middle where I know my partner looks to me for safety and looks to me, and I don't mean physical safety, I mean- Yeah like she wanted to bring something up last night, and it was- Mm-hmm tough and I didn't really wanna deal with it. Mm-hmm. But I had to sort of weather the storm, right? Yeah. I had to weather that, you know, that I feel like this is going on in our relationship, and I feel like, um- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm and I wanna... part of me wants to tell her why all those things aren't true, but they're true for her. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And they, I think there's a level of truth in them- Yeah and I just don't wanna see it because it's painful. Right. Yeah. Interesting that you're able to, and I love what you're saying, because you're able to see and respect that's her truth right now, right? Like, that's, that's what's true for her right now, and so being available to listen. And there are times, I'm sure, where, yes, how do you weather, "Oh, I will do my best, but I know it's not gonna be complete. I, I need to be in the room with you." And sometimes we have to have more than one conversation, right? We have to come back at it again different ways, different, "You know what? I've had a lot t- time to think about what you said," blah, blah, blah. "Here's how I'm seeing things," you know, all of that, so you can have a, an, a newer level, a deeper level of conversation as time progresses, as both of you have whatever it is that's going on. 'Cause that's true too, isn't it? Like you shared with the parking stuff. "I was already late for work, and why did he do..." Right? All the stuff that's coming in, there's already that straw that's already been started to break, and then there's the one that broke the camel's back, right? That final piece that I'm like, "That's it. Everybody's out to get me." Yeah. And I think it's a bit like when we're driving along in traffic and someone is trying to come in off a side street or out of a driveway or out of a shop, right? Like, it depends- Yeah upon how I'm feeling that day as whether you get out in front of me or not, and that's the honest truth. Yeah. Some days if I'm in a shit mood- it's all, and I use this with clients regularly, it's almost like I'm, I'm looking this way- Yeah. to drive on the opposite side of you, right? So I'm looking this way. Yeah. You're coming out this way. Yeah. And it's like I am just pretending that you don't exist- Yeah, you don't... Yeah because there's no way I'm gonna do something nice for somebody. That is the black wolf. Yeah. Where... And that doesn't, I would like to say that happens less and less, but if I said it never happens, I'd be a liar. Yeah. Sure. And this is this whole thing about owning our shit, right? That it's not that- Yeah somebody could get off and go, "Oh, as if you go and see that therapist. He like, he sees..." This is what the black wolf would do if you're listening and you- Right don't wanna see that. It would go, "Oh, what a dickhead. That guy was-" Yeah like, he, he... Why would you go and see him? He said when he drives- Yeah along in traffic, he looks the other way so he doesn't have to let somebody out." That's, that's how they would hear that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's a very valuable point. You will hear what it is you are available to hear. So it depends, too, where you are in whatever's going on, how much you're available to hear, which is why it's so- incredibly important, I believe, to not be only in your head and trying to figure everything out all by yourself, because you've got so many blinders on. No matter how hard you try, you still come at it from your lens. Having... I like what you shared earlier. I like groups for men, I like groups of, for women, because they're able to connect in the way that resonates as a collective, and there's new things that crop up as a result of conversation, in safe rooms that are non-judgmental and supportive at the same time. General respect for one another, right? Yeah. And I think sometimes men try to fix, and I think sometimes it's not about fixing, I think it's just about listening. Yep. Totally. And the example I use with men and women is- Mm-hmm that, because I think, uh, we live in a world where it's almost like it shouldn't have to be a man for a man and, and, and this sort of stuff. Which I, I'm not saying it has to be, but- Mm-hmm imagine if I went and I wanted to become a midwife- Mm-hmm and I studied for 10 years on how to become a midwife, right? Mm-hmm. And I could tell you intellectually- Right everything that was happening as you were having that baby. When you're looking at me, and I'm a male midwife- Yep the last thing you want is me telling you what to do. Yeah. Yeah. When I'm... You know, I understand we live in a world where they're doing operations and things, but w- genetically- Yeah the last person you want when you're in pain- Yeah and they're going, "Yeah, just push, and- Yeah just do this, and just do that. You'll be okay," you know? Like, as if I'm speaking like I know I can do it. Mm-hmm. So this is where I talk about the theory and the experience. Exactly that. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, sometimes, like, the w- you women go through so much more than we do, like, every month, like, um, until you- Yeah get to a certain age, right? Like- Yep and I don't think... Like I say to some of these men, like, "No excuse," 'cause they'll come in, they're like, "Oh, yeah." Yeah. "She was bad last week." Yeah. "But it's alw- always bad this time- Yeah of the month." I'm like, "Okay. So you've got a calendar." Mm-hmm. Fucking set it. Yeah. Sorry for the language, but I'm pretty- Yeah blunt with them, and I say- Yeah "Set in there when she's got her period." Mm-hmm. You know you're- Yep gonna have to make it. You know, it's not, she's not herself. Yeah. It's not her fault. And- Totally you know, bring dinner home once that week, or do- Mm something for her. Like, try and accommodate, because it's actually not her fault. Yeah. And this is the thing, where we've got all this technology, we can actually use it. Yeah. But most people- Yeah "Well, it's not my problem. It's her problem. She should learn- Yeah how to manage." Been happening since she was 12. And I'm exaggerating here a bit, but I'm also showing- Of course that this isn't the- Of course when we're angry. Yeah. When we're angry, sometimes this, these are the conversations that we're having. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And- Our audience, women thriving after 45, a lot of the life changes are happening on the other end, right? Mm-hmm. And so there's all kinds of things that occur, and a lot of times we're just beginning to talk about some of the stuff that we're beginning to understand. But they haven't even done the research over the years to understand the bodies the way that we need to understand them, and to have those supports available, and that's another whole conversation. But it's important for us to understand whom we're speaking with, what is our... I feel very strongly about when you're in a conversation, what is it that is the purpose for the conversation, right? What is the purpose? Not the goal, because that's one-sided. But what is the purpose of having a conversation? And then that will give you an idea of timing, what your levels of calm are, what's, what you're available for, what you're not available for. And I have always found, and I don't know if you find this, but I have always found, I used to do it even in a classroom. If I knew I was having an off day, I would tell the students. I don't think it was something a lot of teachers did, but I'd say, "Guys, just to let you know, my day is not going very well." And they, the students were incredible. They would, some of them would bend over backwards, the pleaser types. I didn't need that, but I just needed them to know that I was a little bit more on edge. And I couldn't tell them why. It wasn't their reason to worry about why, but whatever it was, I would just let them know. And boy, it changed the whole room. You know? The whole energy in the room would change. Kids would then let me know if they're having a bad day, you know? Cool. We can deal with this. And I love that. I love that for a relationship- Yeah and parenting. I think as parents- Yep especially me, I've got an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old, daughters. I think I communicate with them. If I come at home and I'm super stressed or I'm... What's going on- Mm-hmm I will let them know. Yeah. "Hey, Dad." In other words, what I'm trying to say is, "If my behavior's a bit off- Yeah it's not about you." Yes. What I'm trying to do there is I'm try- or my partner, if I let them know as I walk in the door that my behavior is a bit off, or I'm a bit disconnected, or whatever it is- Yep it's not them, it's me. Yeah. And this is what I don't think we do enough, and that's what I love about why I've written the book, is it's always us. It's always my reaction. And I know, uh, Esther Perel and a few others tal- and Brene Brown, and a few other guys talk about- Yep you know, this whole, um, number system where if couples are really struggling with this, what I say to them is when they walk in the door to give each other a number on a scale of one to 10. Yeah. So if you come in and you're a three- And I'm a three. Well, let's just, even if we don't have heaps of money, let's just order in takeaway tonight. Yeah. Like, we're both clearly under half. Let's, let's not, rather than- Yeah me expect you, even though you're a three- Yeah me expect you to cook me this amazing dinner- Mm-hmm and then you expect me to wash up all these pots and pans from the amazing dinner, and we're both already at this point. Yep. And I know we can't buy takeaway every second day, but- Of course, yep that understanding where each other's at, which I think, you know, we don't really ever get to... We don't, you know, and this is the crazy thing being a therapist, I just had a, a... My part- partner organized a, a, um, bir- surprise birthday for me over the weekend. Nice. And I'm not much of a people person, but I'm so grateful- Yeah that she did it. Aah. The crazy thing was a lot of my clients have been long-term, and I probably am more close to them- Mm than I was half the people in the room. Because, you know, they, they might walk past me with their partner, male or w- and I know more about them than what their partner does. So it's almost like a, it's a strange role you play as a therapist. Right. Yeah. But I'm lucky I'm in a relationship where I do have that, like, I do have that connection with my partner as well. Mm-hmm. It's not like that, that I have. The hard ones, the... Which is because of the work you've done. It doesn't just happen, right? No. Yeah. Good things don't just always happen. No. Last night she wanted to talk about, you know, how she felt like the relationship was, she won't mind me saying this- Yep I was moving a bit practical, and we weren't doing much study together, and I, I instantly wanted to justify- Yeah all the reasons why she felt like that. Give all these, again, that sort of fixing. Oh, well, it's because of this and because of this. Is all she needed was, "I'm hearing you." Yeah. "And let's try and organize some ways how the relationship doesn't feel so practical." Like, it's not- Mm that big of a deal, right? Yeah. It's actually more effort for me to pinpoint and get her to understand all the reasons why she's feeling like this. Totally. Where if I can just say, "Yeah, look, I'm hearing you, and what about on Friday night if we do X, Y, Z?" Mm-hmm. Or, "What about on, you know, some things I heard there, like we haven't been going out to dinner enough, right?" Mm-hmm. Well, that's my responsibility- Mm-hmm I think, as a man. And I'm not trying to be sexist, but I like to... She takes care a lot of the- Mm-hmm and out- for anyone out there, I'm not saying that this needs to happen, by the way. But- Of course. Of course she likes to cook, and- Yeah she's an amazing cook, and she likes to cook. Yep. I wash the dishes. Yep. And she does the grocery shopping because she likes to choose what she wants- Right for the meals. Oh, yeah. Um, and then my responsibility is, you know, I organize taking us out and things like that, you know. Mm-hmm. And how it's been is, I feel like I'm s- giving... You've been my therapist right now, but I'm just trying to show people that- Yeah like, day, day-to-day life gets in the way, right? Even if you know it- It does. It does you don't always live it. And we've had a couple- Yep of months of a lot of big events, and then- We haven't really had a break from the kids, and all these things have happened Oh, exactly. Yep. Like- So my job is today to book somewhere to go out on Friday- Mm-hmm or Saturday, because that was- Yep another thing she said. I feel like, you know, there's so many amazing restaurants here, and we've probably eaten at 20% of them. Right. Yeah. And she loves food. Yeah. So I've got to hear that. Yep. And I don't go, uh, part of me wants to justify why we haven't been- Right because I feel a bit like I'm in trouble. Mm-hmm. The little me is in trouble that I haven't done- Yeah, yeah what I was supposed to do, right? Yeah. This is where it comes to this childhood stuff. Absolutely. But if I just go, "I'm hearing you, and, like, let's put some stra- I'll try and make an effort to put some strategies in place so it- Mm-hmm you don't feel like that anymore." Mm-hmm. Rather than spend all that time just giving her- Yeah the reasons as to why she feels that way. Yeah. I think it changes everything. It does. Pretty easy, right? Book a restaurant. Yeah. Organize some time for us to do a bit more study over the weekend. Like, it's- Mm-hmm they're two things that after the weekend I think she'd say, "Oh, wow, I feel so much more connected again." Yep, exactly. Just slowing it down based on what she's sharing, right? Yeah. And coming up with a response to, "You know what? I didn't even realize you were feeling that way." Right? Yeah. Communication is the end game. I... It really, really is, and communication from the white wolf, not the black. Yep. Right? Yeah. So there it is in a nutshell. We just solved the world's problems. That's all you have to do. Wouldn't it be amazing to sit down with, with someone like, you know, one of these world leaders, you know, whether it's Trump or whether... And, like, actually have a b- And you wouldn't, you wouldn't get to it, right? 'Cause the egocentricity is so strong. I was gonna say, it would be a- But wouldn't it be amazing to have some set times with that person to really try and... But the crazy thing is this will probably happen to most people at some point in their life. There will come a time, whether it's midlife, where you almost have these three main areas where this- Yeah, yeah this wall crumbles the most, right? Right. One is around midlife. Yeah. One is around sort of quarter life. Yeah. And the other one is what they call middle passage, which is around sort of between 65 and 75. Right. Where there's these real areas where that egocentricity is thinner. Yeah. Yeah. But even then, most of us miss it, right? Well, and I, I think to bring it back to some of the things you s- shared earlier, sometimes there's a, there's a quote, unquote, "big event" that occurs in a person's life that causes them to like, "Oh, my gosh, I just hit a wall and it really hurts. Something's gotta change, and it's gotta be for me, 'cause I'm done with this," right? Yep. Um, doesn't always happen, but I'm finding more and more the women that I'm speaking to, people that I'm hearing from are- Oh my gosh, I didn't even see that coming, and what am I gonna do with this, right? Um, so anyway And we're not in charge of it. A lot of the time we think- No we're in charge of our lives, but how much control do we really have over our lives? Like, even if we looked at ourselves, if we were standing in a hula hoop, I'm not sure if you guys call them that, but like- Yep, we do you know a, a round hoop- Yeah that you put around your waist. Yep. If you're standing inside of that- Yep. Yeah the amount of control we have is pretty much inside of that. But even then, we could have- Yeah a heart attack at any minute. We could have a stroke. Of course. We could, anything. So how much control have we got in this world? None. Yeah. Except for how you choose to live every day, right? Definitely. Our reaction to it is what we can control. Perfect. I love that even better. Yep. Every action too. Love that. Yep. Yeah. What a wonderful conversation. Um, is there a common denominator in all the issues? Yeah, yourself. Yeah. Right? There is, unfortunately, and that's, it can be hard to hear. If I've got someone come in, you know, at, at the moment I think there's this big narcissist word, right? Yep. Everywhere, and- Yeah statistically 3% of the population are narcissistic. Yeah. That's safe to say. But, and the joke I say is 3% of the population are narcissistic, and 97% of people think they've dated one or married one. Yeah, yeah. The maths are a bit off there, right? A lot of the time is the, the victim, and this is a true, this, the victim becomes a perpetrator. If we don't do something about the energy of being a victim- Mm-hmm that energy manifests in us and we become a perpetrator whether we like it or not. You know, that saying, um, you know, what we don't transform will transmit. Pain not transformed will be transmitted. Yeah. And that looks like I might have a man or a woman come in and- Mm-hmm they're complaining about their fourth partner that's, um, abusive- Yeah and violent. And, um, and what they want from me is they want sympathy and, and I, I gotta give them that, right? Empathy, sympathy, understanding, and that might take a session or two. It might take half a session depending on where they're at. It might take- Yeah three sessions, it might take five. But then there's a bit like, "Hey, look, if we were to do an inventory on the board here, and we'll write all your partners' names down- Yeah and all their commonalities, there's also something over here, like what part of you- Yeah thought it was a good idea to choose those people?" And that can be a hard question, right? That can be like- Of course "What part of you- But- Denise, thought it was a good idea to choose these five previous partners?" Mm-hmm. "And is there a part of you that needs to work on self so that the next partner, the sixth one, doesn't have the same characteristics as the previous five?" But most of us- Right we just wanna run around and, and then... 'Cause what we're doing is we're trying to fix, most relationships- are an unconscious drive to fix the other person- Mm-hmm so that we feel better about our problems that we've never looked at. And that's therapists that have only done the schoolwork and have never gone into a therapy chair. Sure, yeah. First thing I say to my clients when they come in, I don't even like to call them clients, first thing I like to say when people come into my room is- Yeah, yeah I say, "Just so we're aware, I sit in that chair pretty regularly." Yeah. In other words, I go to therapy- Yeah once a week. Yep, yep. And that could be enough for people listening to, to stop, "Wow, wow this guy goes to therapy once a week," because I think I have a responsibility more than anybody else to keep my house in order, to keep my shit sorted- Yep so I don't project it on you in the session. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Totally. So it's about us. No, that's- It's always, the common denominator's always us. Yeah. The one thing that I think you, you tapped into or shared that's tapping back into me is you were talking about relationships, and the one thing that I think is really why I do the work I do and why I think it's so important for women in midlife years in particular to really see who they really are, they have not built a relationship with themselves, and there is no better opportunity than to begin now. You, you can't start yesterday, so start today, and build that relationship with yourself because you're your best ally when you really do that reflection that we talked about at the very beginning in your intro. And there's no- exactly. I love what you said then, because probably about two years ago, probably the most memorable, one of the most memorable events I remember ever at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting was a woman who was in her 80s, and she walked up to the front, it was in a big meeting, and she... Not, we don't have them here in the city, but walked up to the front because they do a thing of, like, coins in a lot of the bigger meetings where- Right if you've got, like, if it's your two years they'll give you a two year chip, right? Right. Well, she got her one year chip, and she was in her 80s, and she, then she shared, and she said, "It's been the best year of my life- Mm because I've become sober." And the, the AA program or the NA pro- or the 12-step program- Mm forces you to look at yourself, right? Yeah. It's almost like a... And for anybody out there listening to this that might not be an addict or an overeater- Yeah or anything, even if you look at that, like we're all addicted to our way of thinking. You can use the- Yeah 12-step program. You can Google it. You can l- use the 12-step program on anything, and the biggest thing I use it on now- Mm-hmm because I am 25 years sober- Mm-hmm it's not the alcohol that's ruining my life today, it's my thinking. So I've replaced- Yes in my book I've replaced D with TH. So everywhere I look it's like, you know, it's not- it's, it's not the first drink that does the damage for me, it's the first think. How powerful. It's the first think of the black wolf. 'Cause generally w- if I'm gonna pick up a drink, and we're off topic but we're not, I'm gonna pick it up- Yeah, yeah it's my mind that tells me it's a good idea to pick it up, right, at some point. Yep, yep. Yeah So I think coming back to that, it's just- Yeah so important to do the work. Yeah. You can do it. We have no excuse now. No. We don't, do we? No. Podcasts, free stuff online. Right Even quotes on Instagram. Doesn't really matter. We... You cannot... You can avoid this if you want to, but it's- Yeah a lot easier to go into it now- Yeah with the, the ability of stuff around. Yeah. Yeah. It's... And, and you have to do it in a way that resonates for you. If it's not sitting right, no problem. Yeah. Keep moving. Try something else. Yeah. Go somewhere else. Find somebody else. Find another group. Reach out to Chad. Get his book. Do it all, right? Try it all, because one size doesn't fit all. It never has, it never will. Yeah. And I think- Yeah if you're with a therapist that thinks they've got it all, or a group that thinks they've got it all- Yep they're not the group for you, right? Yeah. Like, I love, I love some of the Christian stuff, and, and parables and stuff, and I love Him. Mm-hmm. But I'm not... You're not gonna see me, you know, give my... Well, I don't, I can't say what'll happen in the future, but I don't think I'm gonna give my life to Jesus- Mm-hmm and become- Mm-hmm you know, I'm not gonna be 12-stepping you to Christianity, because- Right I love some of that stuff. Yeah But I also think there's so much other stuff that I would cut myself off to- Yeah that I don't think joining a group- Yeah don't like it, and becoming, it becoming the only way is helpful either. Yeah. No, I, I, I- Agreed don't disagree on that one at all. This has been amazing. I knew it would be good. It's been fun. I knew it would be- It's been fun. It's been great great. Yeah. I'm glad you took a chance with me, 'cause I guess- when you see my photo come through, and I'm like- "I think I'd be a good guest for your show," you're probably like, "Oh, what's, what's going on here?" No. I... You know what? So here's the thing. I don't do that. Okay. Because if I did, I would not be enriched through the conversations the way that I am. So for the audience who doesn't know, I won't have a guest on the show unless I meet with them first. So I always have a virtual chat to see if our energy is even aligned. And, you know, it's a beautiful thing that... It's a big problem, but I love the problem, that I have so many people wanting to be on the show. I get calls, emails every week that I can't keep up on. I'm already booking into the end of October for guests, you know? And what a, what a lovely position to be in. But my struggle is I hate saying no, but I have to, because I can only do one a week right now. But in any case, what I'm saying is there are people that send information to me and I'm like, well, the former Denise would say, "What? Are you kidding me? No way. I don't think we'd ever have a conversation." And now I talk with people who've been on the show, and I'm like, "I would've never entered into a conversation with, with this person ever in my prior life." But- I have to because I... Not I have to, I get to because our audience benefits, I benefit. I believe my guest enjoys our conversations, so everybody wins. Why do I not do a win, win, win? Doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And that's too living what you said before. For anyone out there, that's how you turn the theory into the experience, where you talked about going to things with curiosity. Yeah. So I love when you see that and we piece things together. You spoke about it- Mm-hmm and then now you're living it, and that's how we become aware. Yeah. Totally. Totally. We are going to close, and before we do, I would love to know if there's anything in particular you would love to share with our audience as we begin to close off tonight. Oh, just be lovely to... I think I'm thinking about setting up like a group, like a virtual group- Yep um, with the same name as my book, where we almost get together for, you know, an hour or two hours. Yep. Um, and yeah, process a lot of this stuff, you know? They'll probably hopefully be big groups, and I wanna do it, you know, as a really cheap, um- Nice you know, as like $20 a month or something in a weekly group. Like, make it for people that can't afford to go to therapy- Sure where we come on and we... Yeah, so maybe just, you know, follow me on social media. It's chadtaylor.it's you. Yep. Same on Instagram and on TikTok. Yep. You'll find my book of this name on Amazon or Shopify. Yep. Yep. It's also on Audible. If you don't like reading physical books, I've done it on Audible, so you'll have to- Beautiful listen to my voice. You know, I, again, I just set mattresses up in this room. Everybody said to me, "You'll never get it, you'll never get it to good enough quality." But I'm like a person that once I wanna do something, I just do it. Yep. So I put sleeping bags and mattresses off the beds, and I just recorded it- Good for you here on my $15 microphone, and that's on Audible now. Nice. So, um, if you wanna- Okay if you don't wanna read and you, you wanna get- Yeah access to it. And the lastly, if you, if you really can't afford it, like if you really can't afford it, reach out. Just send me an email at... My website is chadtaylorpsychotherapy.com.au. Okay. If you really wanna read it and you can't afford it, just email me and I'll just get you the digital copy for free. Because it's not- Nice this journey for me isn't about lining my pockets. Right. Obviously, I'm trying to make a living to survive. Of course. But it's about, um- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I write in the cover that if you found this- Yeah and you can't afford it, reach out and I'll get you a copy. Because, yeah, it's, for me- Mm it's more about giving back to the world than it is about- Yeah taking from it. Beautiful. Yeah. What a pleasure, Chad, to have met you, have this conversation. I would love to have you back on the show, who knows when, but we will. We'll do that Yeah, definitely. I'd love to. And we will have all the information in the show notes, so make sure that you check out the show notes, grab, um, all the information that's there, and, uh, we will continue to stay connected, Chad. I, um, I connected with you on TikTok and on IG, so when this comes out, we will tag you in those posts to make sure it gets out to the wider audience. And before we do close, I want to share something gently and very clearly that this November I am planning on hosting a live in-person experience called Ignite: The Inner Uprising, and it's going to be a two-day immersive gathering for up to 1,200 women in midlife, women who are feeling that quiet pull towards something more truthful, more embodied, more fully their own. It's like an extension of these kinds of conversations where reflection becomes embodiment and insight becomes integrated, and where women who have held so much for others are going to gather to stand fully in their own sovereignty. So if something in today's conversation stirred in you, if your body started leaning in, if you started raising your hand going, "Ah, he's talking about me," that is not accidental. The wait list is now open, so if Ignite does feel like something your future self would thank you for, I invite you to add your name to the wait list. The link is in the show notes as well. And as always, make sure that you follow, like, share, and leave us a review, because that's how more women are able to find these incredible conversations. Chad, such a pleasure to be with you tonight and your early morning. And make sure, audience, that you do this for you, by you, because of you, so that you can thrive after 45.