Not Broken, Just on Pause with Lee Baucom, PhD

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Thrive After 45. I'm Denise Drinkwalter, midlife mirror and mentor, and every week I am so honored to share energy and space with inspiring guests whose stories reflect so many possibilities of thriving beyond 45. Together, we'll uncover the whispers of the heart, the power of midlife transformation, and the wisdom that fuels expansion, because when one woman turns her light on, the rest of the room catches fire. So what if your marriage isn't broken, it's just on pause, and that pause is the very thing that is actually putting it all at risk? When my guest today was a child, he watched people in his extended family go through divorces that were destructive in the worst ways. It left him very curious about what makes a marriage work and what makes one fail. That question has followed him into his therapy training, and there he began to see the limits of therapy models when it came to helping marriages. So he struck out to find what actually works. Thank heavens. He started his practice in the early 1990s, and in 2000 formed Save the Marriage. And since then, more than 86,000 people have purchased his program, and he has lost count of the coaching clients who have come through his work. He helps people find their way back to a loving marriage if it's possible, especially those living in a marriage of disconnection and hurt, one that has quietly been put on pause. My guest today, it is an honor and a privilege to welcome Lee Baucom, a marriage coach. Welcome to our show. I know this is a hot topic. Well, thanks for having me, Denise. I'm honored to be here. Oh, my goodness Give us a bit of a background. I did a very cursory, right? You did a good one. Yeah, no, it was, that was a good one. Tell us how it started for you in the 1990 and 2000s. And I would, we would love to know how it has changed. What are some of the big pieces that you've seen change in the work that you do meeting people where they're at for marriage? Yeah. Yeah, so I- you're correct. I did my training, specializing... I, I did training first as an individual therapist, but I was more interested in kinda the systems approach to understanding situations. Like, what are the interconnected pieces? Mm-hmm. And one of the places we have interconnected pieces are families and, and marriage. And so, I decided to, to specialize in that, especially in my PhD. So I did all of that work. And, it was honestly one of those moments where I realized... So in supervision, which is what you get a lot of- Yes when you're, you're training, you're always left going, "I must be a horrible therapist," because, there's always something that they're, the supervisor's gonna hit you with. And then I started asking questions like, "How is your success rate with marriages?" Ooh. Like, "How are you doing when you're dealing with marriages?" And I started talking to my colleagues who were in the training with me like, "How's it going with you?" And they started all, when the supervisors would fess up, say, "Well, it depends on what you mean by success." And I'm like, "Success, when a hurting marriage comes into your office and they wanna work on things, success with them walking out with an intact and growing marriage. That would be my definition of success." Mm-hmm. And theirs was very different than that. And I realized the reason was- They needed to recalculate based on what was really going on in the room. Mm-hmm. And that led me to ask the question, do I have a bad supervisor? Am I a bad therapist? Is this a bad training situation? Or is this the norm for- Mm working with couples? And it turned out it's the norm. So that's a little discouraging if what you wanna do is to turn back the clock, help those marriages that really are struggling, even self-destructing, to find a way forward. Yeah and so, as, as I started digging around, the, the research... And, and it's at that time, but I've only seen a little bit of research after the fact that reaffirms this- Okay that 50% of people who go to marriage therapy end up divorced. If that sounds suspiciously like another statistic, that's the general population, right? Okay. It basically, somewhere around 50% of couples end up divorced at some point. So that means we're not beating... it's kinda like if you had some disease and you go for treatment, it's the exact same outcome possibilities as if you didn't go to treatment. That's what it amounts to. And so- Hmm then they started, asking the question of who felt like they benefited from therapy. And depending on the, who, what study it was, because this was a meta study looking at all of the studies- Okay 5 to 10% said that they had any positive effect from that. That's kinda like going to the doctor and saying, them saying, "You need this procedure. And so I've gotta warn you, if you have the procedure, the outcome might be exactly the same as if you don't have the procedure. And oh, by the way, only 5 to 10% of the people who have it say it helps them." I'm like, "I don't, I think I'll pass," right? Yeah. That's not doing it for me. And that raised the question for me, like, what does make a difference? So you're right. I, I, I first pivoted from therapy to coaching. Yeah. and there are some specific reasons why I did that. but I also then felt like I had to answer the question. back in, my training days, I was starting to be a critiquer of some issues in psychotherapy, particularly around marriage therapy too. Mm-hmm. And so in my dissertation, my supervisor said You've been taking the shots for these years. you might need to say what you think is the right thing, instead of just critiquing. I'm like, "That's fair." so that was my dissertation and I felt the same way. there was a certain point when I went, "Okay, I need to say this is what I think does help." So that's what created the program that actually it went online, I, I always use 1999, December of 1999. So 2000- Yeah is roughly right. But I like to say 1999 because it's so last century, right? There, there's a ring to it, right? Yeah. Whoa. In the last century, I started- Yeah this program online. and it feels like 100 years ago, but back in '99, I put that out as, the beginning point of the Save the Marriage program, the system that ended up being a development of that. So since then- Mm-hmm I've been coaching people around the world and also providing help for people around the world since all you need is access- Right to the internet. and, then I started kinda... basically it was like, okay, I covered that, and another question would come up, so I'm like, "Well, I gotta cover that," so that would be a book. So I wrote- Yeah a book about how do you recover from an affair. I wrote a book about why marriages get into trouble because a lot of people would say, "Okay, but why are we here?" Well- Mm-hmm it's a marriage fail point. This is h- what, what happens. I also realized that a lot of times people were faced with the same issue with their spouses- Mm-hmm of their spouse being helpless and hopeless and hurting, those three things, and what do you do to address that? Mm-hmm. And so that was, when I wrote another book about, Beyond the Three Barriers, 'cause those are the three barriers that you, you hit into. Mm-hmm. On the side I was writing about thriving in life. And I- Right don't see those as separate spheres. Like, if your marriage is not thriving, it's hard to be thriving in your life, and if you're not thriving in your life, it's hard to bring in a thriving relationship. And one of the things I often talk about is the midlife point- Yep. Yeah where people are asking, "What is this about? I've only got so much more time." And what have I been doing with it, right? Right. And that, that question can, come across in their careers, in their- Yeah lifestyle, in where they're living, and in their marriage. Mm-hmm. So that was a lot, a lot of words for what you asked. Well, I... What it's showing me is the complexity that exists around this whole topic, and I think that's why it's so valuable to have you on the show because your experience comes from a lot of research- Mm a lot of study, a lot of here's what I, I know to be true based on my experience. So I'm grateful for your supervisor who said, "Let's look at your dissertation- to make sure we're nailing this properly," because if he hadn't or she hadn't, I'm not sure which, but you maybe wouldn't be in the lane you are or maybe it would have taken a different turn. So I'm grateful, whoever that was. It was... His name was Lee. so- Okay, there we, we shared a na- a different spelling and it was funny because Lee, I'm, I'm about 6'3", he's about 6'2" or he was about 6'2" and when we would walk around campus they would refer to, refer to him as Big Lee and me as Little Lee and I don't like how that happened, but there you were. He had the age on me. There you go. I love it. I love it. There's a lot of things that you shared in that and one of the things I wanna come back to is about the reference you made, that you... Statement that you said where thriving, the show Thrive After 45, when one is thriving in themselves there is a, and I'm, I'm interpreting, a reciprocal, Mm relationship when you are thriving within whom you are, then everything in what I call the sphere of influence thrives as well. It's just a ripple effect. Can you share more about what, what you see specifically around marriage and how that works or doesn't work, or vice versa? What, what are the pieces that are important there? Let me see if I can tease some out, and then you can ask questions on- Sure to clarify. But, so one of my core beliefs is that one of the problems in marriage is when a, a partner is looking to their partner to make them happy, to give them meaning, to give them a sense of who they are, rather than having that and bringing that into the relationship. Mm. And, and it- when you're doing that, you're always looking for it, because it's never going to arrive. Mm-hmm. And so, part of thriving is al- is saying, "I'm responsible for that. I'm responsible for what meaning I find in my life, for what happiness I find there, for what purpose I serve. That's all on me." Mm-hmm. And if they get that right, that's part of what they bring into the relationship. If they don't- Sure they're always looking for something they can't grant it. Mm-hmm. And so, when I see somebody who's thriving in life, they- they've already done that, right? They've got that piece, and so they take that into their marriage. Mm-hmm. If their marriage is thriving, part of the reason is because there is the capacity of saying, "Okay, we... These two individuals need to be their own person before they can be a part of the team together." Mm-hmm. And so that already sets up the possibility for them to find a place to thrive in their individual life. So- Yeah that, I, I, my c- one of my core beliefs about marriage is that you, and this is where a lot of people get lost, is I say, "This is the opportunity to be a we." Like, we are in this together. And then people start imagining the people who have, the matching shirts on while they're eating- the identical meals together, and everything is just the same, and that is not what I mean by we. Yeah. I mean about two individuals who bring a better perspective to that, because they are two individuals. Mm-hmm. So when they have that capacity of b- bringing both in together, they create a much wider capacity of being the team together. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes a lot of sense. one of the things that I find so interesting is it- When we hit midlife, when we hit 45 plus, I'm using that- Yeah I have to use a, a baseline marker somehow- Right so we chose 45. Because a lot of times physical changes in our bodies, particularly with the women, because that's, who our show is, is supporting, things start happening. Our moods ch- lots of things can be impacted through that. Is, is there a way to not... And, and I wanna get into what the pause button is, but is there a way to keep, keep ourselves afloat and our marriage at the same time? How does that even work? I know a lot of people are struggling with, "I don't wanna spend it on me, but if I don't, I'm going down." Right? Mm. Yeah. And how does all of... Because it might n- things are changing, which they do over time, but I think in our, in individual and in marriage, those are key areas in our life where things really, woo, the volcano is here, and it's just close to eruption, if not already. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do, what do we do with all of that? How do we... What's some things we can- Yeah, so I, I often hear the either/or. I can either take care of myself or I can take care of the relationship, not both. And the fact is that w- that we're making it a zero-sum game in that capacity, it's this either/or. So, l- let me, let's pull in the pause button, and I think that might lead into this. Yes. My belief is that this is the root of the problems in marriages, not what has, we've defaulted to in books and other trainings where it's communication, right? You just need- Okay to communicate better. That's not the problem. Mm. Communication, I, I consider that to be like pipes. Okay. They deliver something, right? And, and if you've got them hooked up right, you get clean water and it takes away bad stuff, right Perfect. If you don't have them hooked up right, you've got a problem. Right. And, same with communication. So for years I would have people coming to me going, "Well, we just need some help with our communication." And I would sit there and listen to them for 20, 25 minutes and say, "You know what? There's not a communication problem. I understood every single word you said, and you two understood each other. So there's not a communication problem. It's what you're communicating that's the problem." So pause button. You spend a lot of energy and time and resources connecting with this person, right? Mm-hmm. You find this person you're interested in. You start building the connection. You, you're very intentional about that. Mm-hmm. So then you say, "Hey, I think we can do the rest of our lives we can do this together, so let's get married." Mm-hmm. And so you get married, and I'm not saying it's like you say I do and the... And pause button, but sometime after you get married- You realize that you've gotta turn your attention in your mind, I've, I, I've gotta take this energy and put it over here. Mm-hmm. So the energy I ha- I was putting in building our relationship, we need to put into parenting or career or whatever else. So notice that's, we're already at a zero sum. Mm-hmm. I gotta take this chunk and put it over here. So pause button. We'll get back to us though at some point. Mm-hmm. And the us at some point is, after the kids are in school or out of diapers or a- in college or wherever it is, the, we'll get back to us, or when my career is here or here- Hmm or here. And it's always a creeping thing. Hmm. It's, mission creep. It's just always a little further out there. Yeah. And the further it is out there, the harder it is to get back- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm because we start forgetting how to be in connection. Hmm. We go from those habits of connection to the habits of disconnection. Mm-hmm. And when we are disconnected from this person- We start trying to find places to have that connection somewhere. Mm-hmm. Friends, work- Mm colleagues- Mm-hmm another person, the kids. There are lots of other ways that sometimes we do that because we humans desperately need that connection. Right. It's built into our DNA. Right. So we hit the pause button thinking, "Oh, we'll be fine for this period of time because we're gonna put the en- energy here," but the disconnection begins to grow, the distance begins to grow, and as that happens, the resentment begins to build. Mm. Mm-hmm. Because that's w- we were going, "Why are you not close to me anymore?" Instead of going, "Why have I pulled back? Why- Right are we at this stasis point?" It's, "Why are you distancing?" Mm. Mm-hmm. "Because I'm doing what I need to do over here, right? And so why aren't you connecting?" Right. So that's the pause button. Mm-hmm. And built into that is that zero sum. So here's the interesting thing. When I talk with people about connecting, they're like- Mm-hmm "That sounds like-" it'd be so hard." I'm like, "When has con-" So much work. Ah. When has connection been something where you're out not getting, right? It's not... Because whenever I'm spending time with my, my wife and having a good time, I don't feel like I'm, "Oh, I'm counting out the- No connection coins." I'm going, "This is great. I'm, I feel more revived," right? But we, when you're disconnected, it feels like it's just an uphill climb. And so we equate that with, "Oh, there's just not enough time in the day." Mm-hmm. It doesn't, it's not like we're trying to create the connection all over again. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I c- I keep trying to find another place in life where we think that we, now that we've got it, we can let it go. if you're like, "Well, I'm gonna get into shape, and once I'm in shape, I don't need to go to the gym anymore. I don't need to work out anymore. I don't even need to walk anymore. It's already done. I've got that." Or, "I wanna eat better," and about two weeks in you're like, "Okay, now I, I've got that, so now I can just go back to my junk food and everything will be okay," right? It's not a one and done on any of those processes. Mm-hmm. But we act like it in connection. And because of that, we have a hard time filtering it into our normal life. It doesn't take that same energy to maintain. Mm-hmm. If somebody goes, "I'm out of shape, I gotta put in the effort to get in the gym," and once you're in shape though, just maintenance, right? Mm-hmm. It's just fall in the habit. Right. And same with food. Once you make that change, you're like, "Well, it's just what's... That's, that's what we do." Mm-hmm. And, and it's the same with connection, but people forget that. Mm-hmm. And so then they're, they're called up with, "I just don't have time." Right. Why? Why, why is that the norm? Why does that happen? Th- there are a couple of reasons, I think it happens. one is because we have grown up in cultures of zero sum games, right? there, there's only so- when, when we're talking about resources, I've only got so much money or I- I only got so much time or... And, and so we are already playing that, not realizing how it filters into relationships. Mm. Mm-hmm. But I think that also is true is that distraction is part of that process. Mm. Mm-hmm. And we get distracted by so many things. There is another piece, and that is that we do not do a good job in our culture of preparing people to be in marriage. Yep. Yep. And there are- Really good a lot of reasons why that's so hard. I used to see a lot of people premaritally- Yeah which meant that they were engaged and they- Mm-hmm had contacted a place to get married, and that place had said, "You need to go see Lee for three visits before- Mm-hmm you come back here." Mm-hmm. So they were coming in my office to go, "Got another checkbox." Yeah. It was done. And so they, they, they felt like they had already conquered the problem ahead of time. They had preemptively gotten past- Right the divorce. And the reason they believe that, is because we think that it's just love. That's what... When people are coming into this, they're like, "Well, we just need love," right? And so I, I had a little test. I'm... So my honest thing is, when I'm, when I was working with couples before they got married, my job was to pick a fight- to prove that they didn't have it all together. And I tried to have- Yeah it be a friendly little dis- disagreement- Mm but I needed them to disagree. Yeah. And so one of the questions I would ask them, bait them, whatever you wanna call it- Mm-hmm I would say, "Okay, you know the general rate of divorce. I can walk down any street in A- in the US and say, 'What do you think- Mm-hmm the rate is?' And they would basically 50/50 coin toss. You know that. Mm-hmm. So you wouldn't be doing this unless you felt like you had already beat that. Why is it you think you've beat that?" Mm-hmm. And to a person, they would say, "Oh, because we have the real love." And the people I knew who ended up divorced did too. And so they were assuming that there was something wrong, and they, they would often tell me about their parents' divorce and how ugly it was and, how they had fallen out of love with each other or maybe they didn't love each other ever at all and all these things. And I'm like, they're at the... Rewind it. They're about at the same place you are right now." Mm-hmm. But you just don't see that it's not just love. Right. It's intentionality, it's effort, it's connection. there's, there's a lot more in there. Yeah. And, and so part of their belief was that they had already beat the odds, and they just didn't know it that that's not the case. Right. Right. Yeah. How do we As our show, Thrive After 45- Yeah how do we listen to what you're sharing and go, "Okay, so here's where I'm at. Things are not okay. We're pretending they are. We're making it work." How do we really understand? 'Cause in the intro we talked about, if it's a fit, if it's the right thing- Mm-hmm to stay married. Mm-hmm. Are there certain pieces that you would suggest we need to reflect upon as we're, as we're listening? Yes. So let me, let me preemptively state, because people- Sure often ask me, I'm the save the marriage guy. Do I believe every marriage can be saved? I don't. Yeah. There are some times when somebody has found somebody who is, malignant in some way. Yep. And that's just a stated fact, that there are people who, are narcissistic, who are abusive, who you really are toxic. So let's- Right say that I don't believe that's a marriage that is saved. Right. I also know that there are times when people begin to believe things- Mm-hmm also because of their framing. So I, that's a, you need to be very clear. This is not me wanting to see them as the bad guy. Right. They are the bad person, right? Period. Right. So that's a toxic situation. We'll set that off because that's not where you spend your time. Right. Then there are the situations where they have become so disconnected- Mm-hmm that there is no path back, mainly because nobody would look for a path, right? There's just- Okay. Mm-hmm no way to revive it. So that is a group that you're, it's, it's just not gonna work. Right I was meeting someone yesterday who was, like, is, talking with me and said- Yeah "Yeah, my spouse has no interest in working on this, and I'm not sure I do either." And I'm like, "Let me know when you decide that because-" Yeah "until you've decided you wanna work on it, I'm, we're just having an intellectual conversation about- Yeah what happens to a marriage, and that's not going anywhere." So- Right so now we're talking about more the norm where there's a lot of disconnection. Yeah. But there's al- also a lot of connection pieces in there that people think are invisible, like the kids- Mm-hmm like property, like a commitment they made, like the families that they've now combined, f- friend groups, and also generally just some day-to-day connecting that's there. Mm-hmm. And so what they're really trying to do is figure out how to build back from there, right? Love that, yep. And, a- and so, one of the thing, one, one of the starting points I have is to ask people, "What would it look like? Let's say w- you're several months down the line and things have turned around, tell me what your marriage would look like." Mm-hmm. And what I'm trying to k- do is reverse engineer from there. Like if this- Yeah is your ideal marriage, here's where we are. Yeah. Here's the gap. Yeah. What do we need to, to do to build towards there? and that begins to help us understand what, how, how far, right? Mm-hmm. How much has to change to get there. Mm-hmm. for some people it's very, frustrating for them to see that much of a gap because- Mm-hmm a lot of people have gotten to the point where they're just going through the motions. Right. And from, I hear all the time people say, "From the outside, everybody thinks we're the best couple." Yeah. It's behind the scenes But we're roommates, right? Yeah that we're roommates, ships passing in the night. Yeah. we barely know each other, all of those pieces. Mm-hmm. And, and so once we can establish that gap, then the question is where do we begin to work? And, and I always talk about the, my three Cs of the process. Okay. The first C is connecting. Yeah. So we're already talking about the... And by the way, when I say C, I don't mean, like, a s- a water body, right? The letter C. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. My wife says, "You really like your letter Cs," because I've got a number of Cs. But in this one, the three Cs of, of connect, 'cause we have to work on reconnecting, and that happens- Yeah at the physical, emotional, and spiritual levels. Mm-hmm. And those are three levels that people can be intentional on how to bring that back. Right then there is change, because, Mm the whole point of midlife is going, "What do I want the rest of my life to be?" There's change built in, and most of the people who are in a midlife crisis situation- Mm-hmm feeling, whatever they wanna assign to that, it's because they've grown stagnant. Mm-hmm. And part of that stagnation is whatever was working earlier has now run its course, right? Yeah. You're out of runway for that path, and you gotta find a new path. Mm-hmm. And, so change is a, a piece of that, of asking, "How do I need to show up- Mm-hmm to my marriage, to life, to myself? What do I need to bring back into it?" Mm-hmm. And the last one is create. Mm-hmm and that's about creating, back to that marriage they described- Mm-hmm creating the marriage that they would really want and would treasure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so when people say, "Well, I just, I wish we were back the way we were six years ago," I'm like, "That got you to here, right? That six years ago means that six years from now" Yeah, exactly. You've got to be here. Which- You have to have something new, right? Mm-hmm. You ha- you missed an opportunity- Yeah of being that team, of being that we. Yeah. Yeah. or you lost it. Mm-hmm. And either way, that's what we need to build back to. So, th- th- those lay out the pieces for people who are trying to ask the question, "Where are we in connection?" And- Right sub- sub, question, "How's our physical connection? How's our spiritual connection, or our emotional connection, and how's our spiritual connection?" Mm-hmm. Change. Where are the places where I'm stuck? Mm-hmm. Because that's gonna help resolve the midlife thing anyway, regardless- Sure of what happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then create. Yeah. How far are we from having that we thing? Right. So part of that we thing is, contains a couple pieces of feeling the connection and feeling like you're part of the team. Mm-hmm. Makes sense. And you can be one or the other, but you need both. Yeah. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. H- h- how do you, and, and, and this might not be the question that, that is... it's really specific, but how do you h- respond when you've got your couple- Hmm and one is seeing everything and wants to, and the other is like, "Nah, it... We're fine." And they really do believe what they believe, although there's of course a lot of stuff underneath that- Hmm that's really driving it. But what do you do in those cases? Is that, is that malleable? Is that- S- Moveable? Is it solvable? Yeah. s- It's- Yeah. So here's the thing that I've noticed, over and over. I, it... One of my problems with marriage therapy is that you can't do marriage therapy unless both people are there, and if one person is there but not wanting to be there- Mm-hmm they are going to work to convince the process of why- Mm not to be there. And whenever we do that, whenever we're telling somebody about what we think, it ingrains it further in us. Mm-hmm. And so, I knew early on that if I were to see a couple, I ha- I have a, a core rule, it's still true in my coaching. Mm-hmm. My core rule is I will work with the people who are ready to move forward. Right. If they're not ready, they're not invited. Yep. so a few times I've been in the b- the beginning of a coaching session where it's a couple and I'll say, "This is violating my rule that I stated." Yep. "So we're done here." Yep. "Let me know if one of you wants to have a conversation or if that changes, but I'm not continuing it because I..." And it's not me going, "I don't wanna play here." Yeah. "I'm gonna take my balls and go home." I know it makes the situation worse. Of course. Yeah. So, that means that generally speaking, I am often working with the one person who's ready to move forward- Mm-hmm and allowing that to be the catalyst. Mm-hmm one of the things we often underestimate, so now back to the very beginning of my conversation, one of the things we underestimate is what happens. You use the term our sphere of influence, right? How do we influence somebody w- that we're connected with? And I think of it as a dance. Yep. When you're married, you are in a dance, and if you don't like how the steps are going, you shouldn't complain about their steps, you should look at your own steps- Mm-hmm and say, "How do I wanna change my steps?" Hmm. If you change your steps, it will affect the dance. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you, you can't guarantee that they're gonna go, "Oh, I wanna dance your way." Yeah. But- Yeah. But- if you change it, there's a possibility of that. Yeah. Yeah. Have you noticed when you work with a person who comes to work with you and they change their dance, do you notice that when they change others, like we talked about, sphere of influence, things start happening without any... without the person working with you having to go back and say, "Well, this is what I was told to do today." They just start living their truth through your support Yes. And so, so now I'm gonna bring in another little- framework I have. I'm always asking the q- question to the person, "What can you control?" Yeah. And sometimes they will start off with, lots of things. I'm like, "Nope, not in your control." But generally they're like, "I, well, I don't have a clue." Three things that you can control. Mm-hmm. Your aspirations, your attitude, and your actions. I like the A's on this one, right? You're all over this. I love it. Give me some alphabet- and I'll make something up. Your aspirations, your attitude, and your actions. So aspirations, what is it I wanna move towards? Mm-hmm. I have control over that. Doesn't mean I, I, I can get there- Right but I can choose that aspiration. So I could choose that I wanna have a loving, connected relationship. I get to choose that. Yeah. I can choose that, I want to rebuild my s- my single life. That's another- Yeah aspiration, right? Mm-hmm it's y- my point is, you get to choose it. So I could say, "You know what? I wanna write a book." My- Mm-hmm my control. Yeah. I want it to be a best-seller. Not in my control. Yep. Without some major trickery going on, it's not in my control. So not in my control, but I could write a, a good book, right? That's my- Yeah what I'm gonna do. Okay? Mm-hmm. So aspiration, what do I wanna move towards? The second thing you control is your attitude, and I don't mean I'm gonna be happy all day and I'm always gonna be- Ah smiling and upbeat. Yeah. My attitude is the direction I'm facing. Mm-hmm. And so there are two primary directions in attitude. One is, I will figure this out, and the other is- Mm-hmm I give up. Right. Yeah. And we get to choose that, and a lot of times people just kinda default to, "I give up." Yeah. And I'd just like to point out, that's a choice you can make, and there are times when that is not a bad choice. I was t- talking with a guy, it's been a while now, and he'd been in business for years. I, I think- Mm-hmm 20 years, and it had consistently been losing money, and they'd been finding ways of, you know, continuing the business as a losing money proposition. It's not really good for business to be doing that. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. And I finally said, "I think you need to let it go. You've done everything you can to figure it out. It's time to say, 'I can't do it, and I'm walking away.'" That's a choice to make. Yeah. and he'd been so caught up in the I'll figure it out, and my observation, there is no figure this out. There is a, it's time for me to walk away, right? Mm-hmm. So we have those choices. Will I figure it out? Will I walk away? Mm-hmm. The last thing we can control are our actions, what we do and, and say, what we won't do, what we won't say. Mm-hmm. That's another one that I get pushback on when I'm sitting in my office and somebody is reacting to a spouse, and I'll say, "You know what? That's just... we don't need to be verbally that way." And they'll say, "I can't help it." Mm. So here's my test You're now in front of the judge. Yeah. Are you going to treat your spouse the way you are right now? No. Why not? The judge is watching. You've just proven my point that it is- Yeah in your control. You're just choosing to abdicate that. Yeah. Right? So- Yeah those are the three things that we can control. And- Mm-hmm and so I, I... Sometimes people go, "That's it?" I'm like, "That's it, but that's powerful if you take that on." Ah. If you decide- Yeah to just control that, not controlling your spouse's aspirations or attitude or actions, just looking at your own- Mm-hmm those are huge leverage points. And one of the places that marriages get into trouble is they're constantly saying, "You need to do this differently." Yeah, yeah. Not, "How do I need to show up differently?" Right. And the you need puts it into their control, not yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And- As a result, the responsibility is no longer yours to carry, right? One of my favorite words is responsibility. Right? What are your three Rs? What are your- Yes. Yeah. I'll come up with that. Give me a minute, I'll- Okay. Yeah. So what I love about the word is the compound. Mm-hmm. Response ability. I have the- Yeah ability to respond. Just not react. And I can choose my response instead- Yeah of reacting. And so- Yeah a response ability means that I can find a way of taking a different path, Mm-hmm regulation, taking a pause, finding a different way of responding to what's going on than the reaction- Mm-hmm that's usually fueling the disconnection. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. When you were talking about your three As and action, one thing that jumped into my mind, and I don't know whether you do the work around this at all, but the action that you take in your mind around it as well as your what you say and what you do. Do you use that as well, how you think about it, yeah? In, in several ways. many of us are so lost in our thoughts, assuming that- Yeah our thoughts are reality. Yeah. and, and so I, I often will draw out on a chart, there's thought as a thought- and thought as reality. And I'll point out the fact that thought as a reality is one of the symptoms of mental illness. You know- Mm the people... And I used to, when I was in my training, I was in a psychiatric setting and, they would come in and tell me about the helicopters. It was just on the other side hovering. Or the aliens that were listening in on them or the radio was talking to them and the thought in their head felt real and that- Right was a, a, a real problem for them. But we all live sometimes not far from that where- Yeah I have a thought and I take it on as real. Right. My spouse is mad at me rather than my spouse had a hard day and is- Right reacting that way, right? Those are different things. And, and by the way, I'm not saying my spouse had a hard day and is therefore reacting to me is because that's still a thought. Right. But to be aware that a thought in our head is a thought gives us a second to ask how do I wanna respond to this? Mm-hmm. The thoughts do drive our feelings and- Yeah our behavior so if we're aware of that we can begin to note that. So an ac- a, a thought is an action that we often allow just to run on automate- Right background. Yeah. And this is just, it's not so much that you can stomp down every thought. Mm-hmm. You can begin to go, "Okay, that's a thought." Yeah. Label it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Label it as for what it is. Yeah, I love that. I love that. One more thing that we f- we talked about it, but I'm really gonna narrow it in. So this pause button marriage. Mm-hmm. Why is it so, so dangerous in a marriage? What's the ultimate there? The heart of any marriage is the connection. It's the lifeblood of a relationship. we, we live and die by... Our marriage lives and dies by the connection that's there. And so, I, where I live now, we are in the midst of a drought. Got some rain recently, so it looks a little better, but we're still in the midst of a drought. Mm-hmm. And I think about that as a worsening condition over time, and usually it sneaks up on you. Mm. Right? You don't notice that, but that drought begins to damage and even kill the vegetation over time, and, and even the wildlife. And so it's the same thing- Mm when we have the connection, when we're doing well, great. the- Mm-hmm everything's growing and green and great. But as we disconnect- Mm-hmm the drought starts setting in. Mm-hmm. And the longer the drought goes, the more damage- Mm is done. Mm-hmm. And so, that pause button is us stopping the connection process and letting- Right it go to a default process. So it's like, oh yeah, every now and then there's some rain. Like, we might have a nice vacation, or- Right we might have a nice celebration, or we have this nice moment together. So those are like the rain came and everything greens up- Yeah but the drought is still there. Right. And as soon as it's over, we're, we're back into it. And so eventually there, you've run out of resource, right? You've- Right. Yep you've gotten rid of the growth and the p- the possibilities just b- just because it's been so long. Mm-hmm and it doesn't have to be a full drought. Right. Or our... It's not like we haven't had rain in years, we just haven't had enough rain in years, and so the drought continues to build and build and build until you're in extreme situation. Right. Right. And the reality is when you're able to witness that for what it is, that's when you can begin to take your actions and start to move what it... go into what is your ideal and start to put into some of the place, some of the things- So in that- you've shared. Yeah we'll just circle around for a minute to what- Yeah I said is there's no other process where we are just like, I've done it now. I've been to the gym. Yeah. I've got in shape, now I'm done. Right. But, but there is a muscle memory to that. we know that people who have exercised and got into shape get into shape faster when they restart the process. Love that. Yep. So it's not starting from zero. Yeah. You have a muscle memory. You're just having to reactivate that and move back into, the habits that you had built it on. Love that. Love that. Which gives what you talked about before, hope. The hope does, does exist because you've experienced it, you've witnessed it, you've been in it. Mm-hmm. So it's always available for you. It's just where you are deciding to go with that, and where you wanna take responsibility and make decisions and choices, right? Exactly. Love that. Love that. I knew this was gonna be incredible. Knew it. before we close, is there anything that you would absolutely love for our listening audience to hear, or if you're watching the YouTube video content, share with us a, a closing, I'm gonna put in parentheses, a closing comment that you want our listeners to walk away with, if nothing else? Yeah, so there are two things that I- I'm, I'm gonna do because they- Yeah they're linked together. and we've already touched on some of this, so I'm gonna bring them up as two points. If you're wanting a shortcut, focus on being a team. Mm. That's a big one, and being connected. Mm-hmm. If you can focus on those two things... So being a team, how do we play this together on each other's side, right? How do we join together so that we, we play this game the best we can? I play pickleball and I play doubles, and so I'm constantly out there going- Right "How do we be a team?" Right. It's more important than how do we win. Yeah. It's how do we be a team to work well together, right? And, and so be a team. Yeah. So you're working together, realizing that it's not me against you- Yeah but it's us together. Mm-hmm. And work on the connection, so you- Mm-hmm feel like you have this- Yeah thing between you that will sustain you and bring you together. So being a team and being connected are, the shortcuts. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Everything resonates so deeply. I so appreciate your time today, Lee. We will have in the show notes everything, available, how to be in touch, how to find all the incredible books. Are you in the process of writing another one right now? I'm always- Or no? in the process of writing another one. Some of them never make it. I'll get through and I'll go, "Yeah, that's, that doesn't carry." That's not... Yeah, no. You just go back and do it again. But yes, I am actually writing one about being a teen. Love it. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, we'll have to have you back, 'cause I know we will. We'll find the time and space in your schedule to, to create another conversation for our audience, because we know that when you do this for you, by you, because of you, everyone in your sphere of influence, most importantly you, win. 'Cause there is no finish line in this work, because connection is where it's at, right? Mm-hmm. And you s- you shared very clearly we are a species that needs that. That's ingrained. That's part of whom we are as a people, right? So. Absolutely. Yep. Thank you so much for being here. And- Thanks for having me yeah, if you haven't heard, we are putting together a opportunity for women to come together for a two-day live in-person experience called Ignite the Inner Uprising, where it's all about understanding and reconnecting with who we are as a person. So a lot of the things that Lee was talking about today, I'm sure we will dig into and unpack and get clarity through the connection with ourselves and with all of those who are gonna be in the room. It's not a sit-and-get, 'cause we're done with overloading ourselves, and it's not a retreat to get away for two days. It's an opportunity to come in and ignite your spark that exists deep inside. So if this resonates with you and you're leaning in because you were like, "Ooh, there were so many good golden nuggets in that conversation," come and join us in that room in Vancouver in the spring of 2027. Click the link in the show notes to get your tickets. They are on sale now! Thank you again, Lee, for being here and showing us how to thrive after 45.