Stop Choosing Right Now with Sara-Ann Rosen

Denise 0:00

And welcome to today's episode of Thrive After 45. I'm Denise Drinkwater, heart whisperer, midlife mirror, and mentor. And every week, I am so honored to share energy and space with inspiring guests whose stories reflect so many possibilities of thriving beyond 45. Together, we uncover the whispers of the heart, the power of midlife transformation, and the wisdom that fuels expansion. How many times has your body known, long before your mind was willing to admit it, that this wasn't the love that was actually meant for you? It is such an honor and a privilege to welcome Sarah Ann Rosen to the show today. Sarah Ann is a dating coach for audacious women who refuse to settle, guiding women to stop choosing the right now person and start choosing the right person with clarity, self-trust, and deep discernment. Her path into this work is both deeply personal and powerfully informed. She has a background in law and counseling, and a mind wired to question what truly works. Sarah Ann began exploring why love can feel so confusing, especially for women who are otherwise capable, intelligent, and self-aware. What she uncovered is that many of us are taught to override our instincts, stay far longer than our nervous systems ever felt safe. After completing her master's degree in counseling and finalizing her divorce within weeks of each other, she made a very bold decision: to approach dating like a research scientist, gathering real data, not just on others, but on her own patterns. That journey became the foundation for her program, Decoding Dating Dilemmas. Today, through her work, she's supported over 500 women in releasing self-abandoning patterns, stepping out of that emotional rollercoaster of inconsistent connections, and learning to choose relationships rooted in comfort, care, and consistency. Sarah Ann, I have such a feeling that this conversation is going to land deeply for so many women listening, and I am so excited to have you here today. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I feel very honored- Uh-huh to be able to have this conversation with you. My goodness. When we met, I was like, "I can't wait to have Sarah Ann on the show because I know so many women who are questioning, 'What am I doing? What's wrong with me? Why am I never getting this right?'" Can you give us a little bit of your story so we really understand the depth of which you come to your work with? Sure. And I completely relate to these women. Dating feels like one of the few things that gets harder with practice. Ah. Now, isn't that a truth? Yeah. How can that be, right? Well, I, I hope I'll shed, Yeah part of the story, a little bit of light- Yep in our conversation. Yeah. And I came to this... someone once raised a question, "When did you know, you know, y- you were..." I think they put it born to be a coach, and maybe I didn't quite know that, but looking back, I distinctly remember the time in 11th grade, I was still in high school, when I watched my parents have the same kind of bickering routine as I was used to on a lot of days. And it just all clicked for me. And so towards the end, I think I said, "Um, excuse me," or something to that effect. Yeah. Yep. Said, "I have this feeling that, you know, Mom when you told Dad that you just didn't understand what he was trying to get at, what he was telling you or asking you, and that frustrated him, there was a moment when he kept repeating himself where you put it all together. I saw your face change, but you wouldn't give him the satisfaction of saying, 'Oh, I understand now,' because that would kind of be like giving him a free pass. And so I could talk them through step by step, and then this happened, and then this happened. Am I right?" And my father, who was a research psychologist, that completely shifted his mood, and he's like, "I am so impressed. Yeah. That's right." And my mother- Wow was like, "Okay, this is all too much. I'm done here." Yeah. But I realized little bit by little bit, 'cause I think one big defining moment later, you can really piece together the moments of, "Wait, this happened," and that gave me a l- you know, a little bit of insight, and then this happened, and now I have enough for it finally all to make sense. The puzzle pieces finally fit. And so it took me a long time- But I look back on that day realizing I can intuitively understand, you know, the process people go through in when they have disconnection and when they're just not willing to hear- Mm each other or to repair it. Mm-hmm. And- Is that- I don't want to do that. Yeah. And so when you are in that kind of a practice where you're not able to listen and take in another's point of view, do you find that that is a big piece of the puzzle that happens consistently over the people that you support? Or is there something bigger or wider? I think that's often a big part of it, where... And there are many ways that this can c- manifest. But it usually comes down to feeling misunderstood and feeling dismissed, belittled, disposed of in some cases. And so when, uh, in my program, I focus a lot on our, what I call our patterns. Okay. Mm-hmm. And patterns are just need-meeting strategies. Okay. So we all- Can you explain more on that? Yeah. Sure. Can you explain a little bit more and widen that scope of understanding for us? Sure. So... And sometimes these need-meeting patterns which, you know, form through repetition, like with my parents. I would observe the same kind of bickering week in, week out, and there was, there was never really a pause button. My parents were just so e- emotionally in the middle of it that it was hard for them to say, "Wait. What are we doing? Where did this go wrong? Let's step back." Right. So I thought, "You know, I don't want to repeat this pattern." So that was their way of trying to meet a need in the environment and the, uh, style of communication that they had developed together. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so what I look at is I try to help clients map the needs. Map- Okay when do they feel safe? How do they get there? And what do they need to feel secure? When have they- And a sense of belonging and meaning or purpose, 'cause not everybody has consistently felt those things, but we all need those things Okay, yep. That makes sense And so we adapt to our circumstances and create... Or we don't consciously create them, but, but our body, our intuition, and our thought process all come together with repetition to figure out, this is how I can get a l- a little more of this or a little more of that So does the, does a relationship have to start before you recognize these patterns? Or do you start with yourself first? It- I'd like to say it's a both and Okay And, and I would say that it doesn't need to be specifically through a romantic relationship that we look at and rework these patterns. It can just be relating in general Okay Because we have a need to feel safe whether or not we're dating someone or married to someone. Right And who do we look to? Who have we been able to rely on for a sense of safety and belonging? And as with, um, with... I think this is trending recently, attachment psychology. People are talking a lot about secure attachment and insecure attachment. And Stan Tatkin, who developed one of the, um, therapeutic methods based in attachment, he says that we learn to love ourselves through the love that we received and saw modeled by others when we were younger. And so we bring those blueprints with us. Right So it's really both and. So then if we have a blueprint where safety, acceptance, compassion, y- we know what it looks like and what it feels like, then we have that embodied representation, and that is how we really nurture that within ourselves. Gotcha, gotcha. You've got a, you've got a model, right? That you're, you're following- Yes that blueprint. Yeah And for some, our blueprints are, are, um, not as robust. However, we have many channels in our lives. So if we can get that from joining an activity group, making friends, or just- receiving acceptance, then we can- Nurture that in so many ways through so many channels Love that. Love that. So not, not all is lost. There are other ways to access this, which is what you do in your role in coaching is show people where those are available and how to access them. Yeah. Love that. Beautiful. Amazing. In the introduction, I think this is a really... I think this is a really important piece, so I'm gonna ask the question. Um, the right now person instead of the right person, can you deepen our understanding on that and what is that telling us really what we need to do when we are going into a dating world, let's say? The right now person often comes with something about them attracts us, excites us- Yep. Mm-hmm and before we even really know the true person. And that gives us hope, and I know a lot of people are, are saying they're burned out with dating. They hate the process of dating, of going through- Mm the, the rapport building, the uncertainty. And so when they get someone who is at least giving them attention, giving them hope- then we can often, through the anxiety of I don't wanna go through another- Mm false start again, convince ourselves this could be the right person before we have enough information and experience to, to really know. 'Cause it's... In my experience in research, it's easier to tell who's not the right person quickly. Ah. There you go. Yeah. It takes longer to figure out if they are the right person. And we have a lot of expectations that we've learned, and I guess I'm speaking right now specifically for US culture, but probably o- many others as well- Mm that you need to feel a certain level of excitement, a spark. But my perspective on the spark is that a spark is one-sided. Something about them resonates with something that you value. However, it's just a proxy. Right. So we're looking at maybe the kind of job they have or the kind of... Let's see. I was recently talking to someone who said that they really fell for someone they'd met on a dating app- Who had a medical background and who was highly educated because this person, while they have a graduate degree, they're the first in their family to, and that's something they just dreamed of as a child. Right. They just didn't know many people in that environment, and so this meant something. So the meaning it holds for them- is something separate from just a symbol of having a degree. But they make it mean something- Right before they really know the person or what- Right the person, really how, how the person will behave or what the other person's looking for in a relationship. So do you, do you... How do you suggest then, let's say there's a scenario. We'll create a scenario. We'll tag onto what you already shared. There's something in your lineage that this is the first thing you've ever accomplished or done, and you find somebody and that is the attractor. What do you suggest in order to understand, is this really the right foot in, f- um, fit instead of it being the right now? The first thing is whether or not this is a digital meeting or an in real life meeting- Okay is in either case, pay attention to the initial goal. Are your goals in sync? Say, for me- Mm-hmm my goal is to build rapport. Mm-hmm. And that is to ask them questions. Gradually deeper and deeper questions. And oftentimes the other person's goal is more to impress. Yep. And sometimes, particularly on dating apps, the other person's goal is let's just skip to the fun and flirty teasing and rush into meeting- and because they want excitement. They want a fun date. They're not necessarily concerned with, is this going to be a fulfilling relationship? Right. So if you can feel there's a misalignment in the initial goal, stop right there. Yeah. Time to leave. Thank you. Next. Yeah. Yeah. What... Because honestly- You're doing this for you, by you, because of you, right? The basis of our program is about that. It's not about people pleasing. It's not about, "Well, I might hurt their feelings." It's like, "Is this an alignment for me?" And it's time for us to be able to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And I will note that particularly for women who are dating men- Mm-hmm I really do understand and empathize with the concern of, "I don't wanna hurt their feelings because what if they act hurtfully towards me or threaten me?" Mm. Mm-hmm. 'Cause, uh, I, I think I've experienced something like that once. And luckily that was online, so it was just the person having a little tantrum in writing. Right, right. Um, we didn't have... We never shared contact information. But when I said- Mm-hmm "Thank you, but I, I don't think, you know- Mm-hmm our goals are aligned, but I wish you the best." Right. And he got upset and- I've heard of that. More than a... it should never happen, but- Right, yeah. So I've personally experienced it once. Other people, I think, experience it more. And- Mm so that is real, and when it's someone, you don't even know their middle name, for example, you haven't exchanged contact information, it's okay just to delete them. You don't owe them an explanation. That's a nice point. Yeah. 'Cause that worry is real. Yeah. No, that's, that's a very good point. Yeah. How can you tell if you have met the right person? Should you know, like, early on? Or are you wasting your time if you don't know early on? I, I know today time efficiency is a big deal. Mm-hmm. Many people talk about, about dating in terms of time. And I understand that and I think a lot of us don't give people enough time. Mm. So that, that might be hard. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So s- because we don't have much shared community spaces or- Right you know, meet people through shared networks as much anymore- it's easier to make snap decisions. However, in the research, when couples have been asked whether they knew they were attracted to their partner ri- even just attracted to their partner right away, or if they knew that, you know, this is their person, almost 40% said, "No." "Nope. When we first met, I didn't really feel much of anything. I had no idea." So it's... Again, it's easier to know who's not your person. So we talked about, just assessing the do you have the same get to know you goals? And also, the most important quality to look for- Mm-hmm is how flexible are they? How courteous? Do they accept y- that you might not, not have the same preference 100% of the time? Say, where you meet or what you do or what time of day, all of these little things. Because that translates into when the stakes are higher, will they go the distance to show you that they're trying to understand you and accommodate you? Okay. Yep. And the next is attunement, and that's the- their capacity to recognize where you are emotionally- Mm-hmm to interpret it and respond to your verbal and non-verbal signals in a way that helps you feel seen, safe, and understood. Mm-hmm. So it's not mind reading, and they don't have to, to know the precise emotion you're feeling. But they could say, "I just wanted to check in. You seem, you know-" Mm-hmm "a little distracted or-" or a little, a little confused or a little sad." "Just checking in." Right. Yeah. Because you matter. Yeah. And I, I'm... Like, I'm not running the show by myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's even just general respect, right? And, and compassion- Precisely for the connection. Yeah. For sure. Precisely. Love that. And yes, having the flexibility or as, um, John Gottman, who's I think considered the father or grandfather of relationship psychology research, he- it's his term accepting influence, that yes, it really boils down to how much do I respect- Yeah you and your experience? Amazing. So many golden nuggets there. As I'm listening, I'm thinking about my relationship with my husband- We've been together since we were 16. Wow. So I know we are probably a bit of an anomaly, but there's still things as you're talking I'm like, "Yeah, that's important. I agree with you on that." And the idea of listening to understand and not listening to respond is so huge, isn't it? And we've talked about it in our show different, different shows in the past about the importance of that. But it really is about good communication and I love your concept around the ability to feel safe in your own body. That's, that's so important. And we know when we aren't feeling safe. We know our signals. It's just to listen, isn't it? Yes. Yes. And, and to pause. And what you said about communication, yes, and I think there's a layer that's not often discussed, and that layer is... And it goes back to attunement, specifically emotional attunement. So when people feel emotionally connected- say, when one person is talking, the other is giving them eye contact, is nodding, or is, you know, changing their facial expression in a way that complements the mood- of the discussion, then they feel okay. "You're getting me. We're on a similar wavelength." Yeah. And so without that, you know, we can do all of the counseling communication exercises we want, such as I statements, I feel. But if we don't have the underlying emotional attunement and connection, then- Yeah it's not, it's really not gonna land- Right that effectively. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the words. It's not the deeper component to it. It's just the words, right? Mm-hmm. And some of us have to start with the words because it's foreign to us, right? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think that's something that confuses, including me- Mm in many instances, uh, a lot of people who are dating. When their date uses words that sound familiar, that sound, you know, in agreement with what we think, value, and feel, however their conduct is not reflecting what they say. It's really confusing. Yeah. Yeah. And we keep... I think especially for women, we keep hoping, "Did I misunderstand?" Was this, you know, just an anomaly? Or was I unclear? And isn't that interesting? Because like you suggest, as women, we start to question, but we're questioning ourselves- Yeah not necessarily the relationship. We put it back on ourselves. "Well, it must be me, because I must be... I'll have to try harder. I'll have to do s- and I would suspect that the work that you do helps women to alleviate it's not all about you having to bury and carry the burden of, "I need to change to make this work." Yes. We need to be solid in who we are as a person and what is good for us. Because if it's not good for us, then it's not going to be the best, right? It will be draining. It will be- Yeah and it will increase our self-doubt, our insecurities. Yeah. And relationships are the most important part of, how we succeed in all areas of life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. And it may, I think, have something to do with, at least for me, growing up in a culture that tries to intellectualize emotions. And while neuroscience has shown this, we've gotten this wrong, that emotions are actually the scaffolding that our thoughts are built on- Yeah and our emotions show us what's salient, and they help us reason. Because if we don't feel anything, then everything's equal. Nothing really matters. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh... So with that, that landscape of- Mm emotions are lesser, you have to use logic. You ha- Then if we're getting all of this input from our body- Yeah that is... and then feelings around it that we're trying to put words to to communicate with other people, it's like something feels off- Yeah because we're... that's not the mode of communication that, that people expect. Yeah. It's a disconnect, right? Mm-hmm. It's a bit of a disconnect, and it's, it, like you said before, it could be confusing, yeah, to receive and to send. It's "What? What? What? Where, where are we going?" Yeah. So it's- Yeah it's not that we're not enough. Yeah. Love that. Say that again. Say that again. That's important. I'll say it in the, in the affirmative. We are enough, and we have an advantage when we know what we feel. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Love that. As we get ready to close, is there anything you would love to tell our audience of women who are sitting here going, "Ah, I can breathe again. I've got some ideas that you've planted, some seeds. Now I get to go and water." Is there anything that you would love to share just to bring our conversation to a close? And in the show notes, we always have how to contact you and where to look you up and, and get connected. Sure. Thank you. I think two quick things. Mm-hmm. And this again comes from research. We tend to worry, particularly as we age, that, uh, we become less desirable. Well, according to studies and I don't like the fact that they used a rating system, but that's kind of how, how, uh, academic research goes. Mm-hmm. So they used a Likert scale from one to five. Mm-hmm. S- let's say hypothetically someone was rated four out of five on attractiveness. It takes over 100 years for the person to fall from a four to a three with- with age. So it... The fact that we're five years older now than we were fi- it's, it doesn't make a very, a significant difference- at all, or a statistically discernible difference. Yes. And in fact, in my experience I have had... I've been in relationships at 45 and older- Mm-hmm where... And I happen to date men. Mm-hmm. And they have been absolutely enthusiastic in telling me, how desirable they think I am, in fact more than- Mm-hmm than when I was younger. Love that. And, and so, and it also is because I also learned how to be more comfortable in myself. And it's harder when, when you're, you're in your 20s and trying to figure out life- Mm-hmm and figure out the messages around you. Mm-hmm. So it's part me, and perhaps they're more comfortable expressing how they feel. Sure. Yeah. That is what we have to look forward to. Nice. It doesn't disappear. Love that. Perfect. Amazing. Thank you so much. Be- before we close, I do want to share something gently but clearly. This November, I am hosting a live in-person experience called Ignite: The Inner Uprising. It'll be a two-day immersive gathering for up to 1,200 women in midlife years, women who are feeling this really quiet pull towards something more truthful, embodied, more fully their own. It's an extension of the conversations we have here. It's where reflection becomes embodiment, where insight becomes integrated, and where women have held so much for others gather to stand fully in their own sovereignty. So if something is stirred in you today in our conversation, if your body is actually leaning in, that is not accidental. The wait list is open. So if Ignite feels like something your future self would thank you for, I invite you to add your name. The link will be in the show notes. And as always, follow, share, leave us a review so more women can find these incredible conversations. There will be a place for all of us to gather. Have a wonderful day. Sarah Ann, thank you so much for your research, your brilliance back in grade 11, and tuning in and doing the work you did back then, which has brought you to where you are today and beyond. So thank you for all you are doing for women and really understanding dating, but also who they are in their own relationships so that they can give to a wider relationship. Whether it be dating or groups like you shared, relationships and, and community are so, so important in our lives. So thank you so much. Thank you. It was my pleasure. And to our audience, make sure you continue to do something for you, by you, because of you every day, and thrive after 45